Melodic Minor Courses Online? or Favorite Book Must Have

[supersoul]

Manchester, Postcode M8, Strangeways Prison. (or part of the 'The Cheetham Hill Gang')
Attachment 121503

Strangeways Here We Come... is my favorite Smiths album.
Which probably doesn't contain an example of Melodic Minor

[pamosmusic]

No, the scale referenced was the combined Harmonic/Melodic minor scale (8 notes); D hm is: D-E-F-G-A-Bb-B-C# - so it would have both the nat.9th and #9th of the G13 chord.

Is that what Allan was referencing?

I thought he was just commenting on the redundancy of arguing about the limitations of upper structures or chord scale theory or whatever since a big ole chord has a scale living inside it and vice versa.

my b

[jameslovestal]

Is that what Allan was referencing?

I thought he was just commenting on the redundancy of arguing about the limitations of upper structures or chord scale theory or whatever since a big ole chord has a scale living inside it and vice versa.

my b

Would this 8 note combined scale have: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 6, 7? (or would the 7th be flat?).

Thanks in advance.

[Mick-7]

Is that what (the scale) Allan was referencing?

I thought he was, I could be wrong.....

Would this 8 note combined scale have: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 6, 7? (or would the 7th be flat?).

Thanks in advance.

Yes sir, that is correct, it includes both the b6th of the harmonic minor and natural 6th of the melodic minor scale, both of which have a major 7th in them.

[Mick-7]

I always wonder about these mysterious messages from Christian that include no text, but say only....

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It's rumored that he reveals the secrets of jazz guitar mastery in them which, alas, we shall never know!

[rpjazzguitar]

Actually, it doesn't tell you the precise scale, because the scale would have the natural 9th (A) and the #9th (A#/Bb) of G13 in it, and the chord name won't imply that the scale includes both notes. It also suggests that G is the root of the scale.

Furthermore, it tells you nothing about how to use the scale. The most common applications of this scale are: (a) Altered Dominant or Altered Minor 7th chord, which written as chords are: C#13b9/#9/b5/#5; and C#m13(alt), which if spelled out would be: C#m13b5/b6/b9/b11.

Another common application of the scale is over the relative Major 7(alt) chord, i.e., Fmaj7b5/#5 (like the Melodic minor scale).

G13#9#11? G B D E F A# C#. Are you seeing that differently?'
I guess I'm unclear which scale you're referring to.

EDIT: I just read the rest of the thread. So you were referring to the 8 note scale.

I was approaching it from the point of view of the chord name implying 7 notes, which was Allan's point, or so I thought.

And, it raises a question about how to learn the various possible applications. I dread trying to learn an 8 note scale and then a bunch of chords to use it against, each requiring some sort of mnemonic device to remember.

I find it much easier to connect the chord name to a scale (or hexatonic, or whatever). This approach probably makes it easier to get started while arguably limiting the sophistication of the sounds you can get. Arguably. I don't really know if it's true.

Not that I don't know some mnemonics, but they seep in slowly.

[Mick-7]

G13#9#11? G B D E F A# C#. Are you seeing that differently?'
I guess I'm unclear which scale you're referring to.

Both the D harmonic and melodic minor scales have an 'A' in them: D-E-F-G-A-Bb-B-C#. See: This post

[wolflen]

So when they hit college level jazz guitarists start to get interested in things like the JS Bach solo string works and so on, because it teaches the fundamentals (although JS is a bit problematic because frankly his music is too interesting.)[/I]

Ted Greene may not agree...

[Christian Miller]

I always wonder about these mysterious messages from Christian that include no text, but say only....



It's rumored that he reveals the secrets of jazz guitar mastery in them which, alas, we shall never know!

Either that or it’s because I realised I’ve said something dumb but can’t work out how to delete messages in Tapatalk.

You decide!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rpjazzguitar]

Both the D harmonic and melodic minor scales have an 'A' in them: D-E-F-G-A-Bb-B-C#. See: This post

D# F#, G# C. Those are the four notes that aren't in this scale.

Against G7:

F#, the major 7th, which can make the dominant sound ambiguous.

D#, which is the b13 or #5, commonly used in a G7 situation.

G#, which is the b9. Typically, when the chord has a #9, you get the b9 for free. I don't hear natural 9 with altered 9 all that much, but I should transcribe more, so maybe I missed it.

C, which also can make the dominant sound more ambiguous.

So, another way to think about this situation would be to avoid the F# and C and permit yourself to make melody with any other note. And, someone will point out that the F# and C are, in fact, usable too. At that point it's any chord takes chromatic scale.

Presumably, there are some sounds that I won't reach if I think this way. Since the sounds can be viewed as created by what you omit from the chromatic scale. OTOH, it's so simple I can use it.

When I try to consider all the elements I'm left with this. The tune has harmony and re-harm. If I put that in my comping or in a chord melody -- and then I play on each one of the chords, I won't have to think about dozens of combinatorics that I'm pretty much incapable of learning.

This, btw, is how Chuck Wayne played. He'd harmonize every single note in the tune and then try to solo on every one of those chords.

In practice, you have your various ways of playing a ii V (or other sequence). And, you play on those.

[Mick-7]

Against G7:

It's primary use is as an altered scale, so used over C#7/Db7 rather than G7 (it's rather bland over G7).

Over Db7, it gives you all the altered tones plus the 13th: Root(Db/C#) -b9(D) -#9(E) -3rd(F) -b5(G) -#5(A) -6/13(Bb) -b7th(B).

[rpjazzguitar]

It's primary use is as an altered scale, so used over C#7/Db7 rather than G7 (it's rather bland over G7).

Over Db7, it gives you all the altered tones plus the 13th: Root(Db/C#) -b9(D) -#9(E) -3rd(F) -b5(G) -#5(A) -6/13(Bb) -b7th(B).

If you already know the altered 5ths and 9ths for Db7, is there any advantage to thinking about this scale?

[pamosmusic]

If you already know the altered 5ths and 9ths for Db7, is there any advantage to thinking about this scale?

Not to be short — but is this a different question than the one you already asked?

Apparently you don’t need to.

I guess for myself the obvious answer is that sometimes I play stepwise stuff and the scale organizes the notes in stepwise order, whereas a chord doesn’t.

Also worth mentioning that guitar can rarely voice chords in thirds, which is the way that we play single notes. So scales are more flexible for me to think about than chords and extensions.

[AllanAllen]

Is that what Allan was referencing?

I thought he was just commenting on the redundancy of arguing about the limitations of upper structures or chord scale theory or whatever since a big ole chord has a scale living inside it and vice versa.

my b

I’m just a simple data farmer, I don’t know nothing about no aight note scales. You were right.

[rpjazzguitar]

Not to be short — but is this a different question than the one you already asked?

Peter, If I could remember that, I'd be on board with the scale theory.

[pamosmusic]

Peter, If I could remember that, I'd be on board with the scale theory.

I mean —- it was on this thread, and yesterday, which is why I asked

[Mick-7]

If you already know the altered 5ths and 9ths for Db7, is there any advantage to thinking about this scale?

This scale is the best way for me to think of these notes, it gives me the Dominant 7th chord tones and every altered note I could want. I can even compose chord passages using only notes from the scale.

For example, here's a phrase from a song, all the chords I used are from this scale:

[Christian Miller]

I like Db mixolydian on G7. My favourite note is the F#


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[GuyBoden]

I like Db mixolydian on G7. My favourite note is the F#

I like Db dom on G7. My favourite note is the Ab.

[Mick-7]

I like Db mixolydian on G7. My favourite note is the F#

And B over Gm7? Is F# over G7 considered an "altered tone"?

[Christian Miller]

And B over Gm7? Is F# over G7 considered an "altered tone"?

Don’t know what that means

I mean it’s not the C major scale?

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[pamosmusic]

I like Db mixolydian on G7. My favourite note is the F#


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Me too.

Im a maverick.

[GuyBoden]

Funny thing is that:

When it's Swing or Bebop I use the Dom scale.

Anything more modern and I'll use the Mixolydian.

[Mick-7]

Don’t know what that means and I don’t care

I mean it’s not the C major scale?

I never see anyone include the major scale in a list of altered scales - e.g., Gb major (Db mixolydian) played over G7.

Do you ever use the term "altered scale"? If so, do you think of it as a vague term with no precise definition?

Funny thing is that: When it's Swing or Bebop I use the Dom scale. Anything more modern and I'll use the Mixolydian.

I just call it the major scale, in my opinion seven different names for it is six too many.

[Mick-7]

I like Db mixolydian on G7. My favourite note is the F#

Me too. I'm a maverick.

Yes, I never play a wrong note... but occasionally my timing is off.