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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    We can't post charts here from the Real Book or other publications protected by copyright.
    I do not believe that this chart is from the Real book, I just found it on an internet search, but the melody is protected by copyright, fair enough.

    What happens if I post a link to the google search result?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot View Post
    Who wrote this comparison, please?
    Not sure.... It's not my own work - jazz student in Japan IRRC.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    Wow. I can imagine you standing up in a circle and saying, "Hi, I'm Mark. I'm a Song-A-Holic." "HI MARK!" "It all started when I was a child..."
    It's true. I went through the ten step program, the twelve step program, then the SA Program that you mentioned, but nothing worked, until I played every song I liked on as many gigs as possible.
    I'm down to only two songs now, and I've treated them by writing big band arrangements of them.
    I finished one, and will have it played very soon, and I'm in the middle of the other.
    Very soon, I shall be completely song free!

  5. #54
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Not sure.... It's not my own work - jazz student in Japan IRRC.
    Thanks.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    It's true. I went through the ten step program, the twelve step program, then the SA Program that you mentioned, but nothing worked, until I played every song I liked on as many gigs as possible.
    I'm down to only two songs now, and I've treated them by writing big band arrangements of them.
    I finished one, and will have it played very soon, and I'm in the middle of the other.
    Very soon, I shall be completely song free!
    I'm tempted to pull an old AA move and give you a match-book cover with my phone number scrawled inside.

    "Man, if ever you think you just can't finish the day clean, you know, man, you can call me... you know? A burden shared is a burden halved..."
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    Bird might have played it as a ballad with the Bird With Strings LP, but he never played it in a small group.
    The earliest recorded version that used that change that I know of, was The Jimmy Raney/Phil Woods 'Early Quintet' LP in 1956.
    That pre-dated the Miles Davis version and the Tal version by a few years.
    Anybody know any earlier version?
    Earliest versions I can think of are Stan Getz's Carnegie Hall (live) and Norgran (studio) recordings from Nov and Dec '52, again featuring Jimmy Raney.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by pubylakeg View Post
    Earliest versions I can think of are Stan Getz's Carnegie Hall (live) and Norgran (studio) recordings from Nov and Dec '52, again featuring Jimmy Raney.
    That would have to be the earliest bop recording of it. I wonder if they used the diminished change, or the half diminished?
    Either change works, but I don't know why BH was so against the half diminshed change.
    That type of progression occurs in tunes like "Old Folks" and "I Should Care...

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Did another run, in the key of G this time. Granted, nylon string makes everything more romantic, but I really enjoy what I'm finding in this old tune.

    hey mr B,

    nice version there man ...
    are you sticking to the Bb original film changes you posted earlier ? (you said there might be tweaks edits to come but none came)

    I also like the dim sound at the top of this tune ....
    thanks for the help man

  10. #59

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    Close...a few changes maybe...I don't write this stuff down, really, so once I get going...

    There's a few things I've definitely settled on...I'll post again tomorrow and talk about it.

    Now I think I want to play the head in G and modulate to Bb for the "blowing."

    A few edits made on page 1.
    Last edited by mr. beaumont; 03-20-2016 at 11:49 AM.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
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    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  11. #60

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    So is the consensus that the first change is a diminished?

    BH suggests a Maj7Dim.

    JP says its a straight A7, but he's thinking about improv not "chord melody".

    Monk says its a relative minor 6 with 6 in the bass (same notes as the usual half-diminished, but pushing in a different harmonic direction I guess).

    A lot of the confusion arises because of playing the opening over a pedal tone - so they could be seen as slash chords I guess.

    One way or the other the ambiguity is intentional ;-)
    "Really welding was my talent, I think, but I sort of swished it aside." Wes

  12. #61

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    It's a little more complicated than just diminished, because of that melody note...lots of things it can be written as if you take that note into account...
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  13. #62

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    I think the crucial thing is that there is a pick up bar. You have to start listening from there.

    Starting from there, notes A and Bb from pick up bar (if I remember the whole thing correctly) I hear as

    A7/G (notes G Db E A) - going to - A7b9/G (G Db E Bb), where A7b9 = Bbdim = Dbdim ...,

    then, note A from the first bar I hear as a part of Gm9/E (E Bb D A) - A7b9/E (E Bb Db A) - Edim ...
    ^ ^ ^
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    v v v

  14. #63
    To me, this is the "real" version, nobody else has come close in terms of creativity, harmony, ensemble playing although Keith Jarrett's version gets a nod too...


  15. #64

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    The Miles version is fantastic, I used it as the first point of reference when I was working on the tune a couple of months ago, but it's hard to do all that on solo guitar! Well impossible for me actually!
    "Really welding was my talent, I think, but I sort of swished it aside." Wes

  16. #65
    Hi guys,

    I have written a reharm for stella by starlight for any one who might be interested, here is the chart. more than happy to get into a discussion on anyone's thoughts or questions on the reharm, cheers guys (really appreciate this forum)


    Stella by Starlight - The Real Chord Changes-stella-jpg

  17. #66

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    Great stuff from Peter Bernstein... by the way he refers to the movie too.

    I always heard these two first chords as lind of separated one chord but I did not name it diminished

    I really like his approach... vey musical, based on ability to hear (not necessarily to name)




    By the way I noticed that Peter often calls any chord based on diminished triad (no matter what the other tones are) - a diminished

  18. #67

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    Great thread! But now I want to spend the morning starting this tune on a Dbdim instead of doing the work that pays the bills

  19. #68

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    My favourite version is the (admittedly) romantic one by George Shearing. It cleaves to the spirit of the original soundtrack but includes composed/improvise sections that I could imagine Debussy playing. Shearing plays it in C. (note the long pedal on a low C at the beginning of the melody). The first melody note chord copies from the original but the chord has its own kind of wow! Like the original there is a lot of attention to bass line movement.

    Last edited by Roberoo; 12-26-2016 at 09:01 PM. Reason: error

  20. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Roberoo View Post
    My favourite version is the (admittedly) romantic one by George Shearing. It cleaves to the spirit of the original soundtrack but includes composed/improvise sections that I could imagine Debussy playing. Shearing plays it in C. (note the long pedal on a low C at the beginning of the melody). The first melody note chord copies from the original but the chord has its own kind of wow! Like the original there is a lot of attention to bass line movement.

    Man, that is GORGEOUS! Thanks for sharing this one. I hadn't heard it yet. That's what I'm talking about!!

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberoo View Post
    My favourite version is the (admittedly) romantic one by George Shearing. It cleaves to the spirit of the original soundtrack but includes composed/improvise sections that I could imagine Debussy playing. Shearing plays it in C. (note the long pedal on a low C at the beginning of the melody). The first melody note chord copies from the original but the chord has its own kind of wow! Like the original there is a lot of attention to bass line movement.

    Beautiful...

    Good South London Lad.

  22. #71

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    Frankly, the whole album is on that level and it is a joy to listen to. Shearing really absorbed the harmonic approaches of the late 19th and early 20th century composers and seemed to seamlessly incorporate them into his jazz playing. He deploys whole tone based harmonies and melodic approaches which fell somewhat out of favour with jazz after the early days (e.g. Bix etc).

    Glad you like it.

    R

  23. #72

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    This probably won't be relevant to many but here goes ...

    Warren Nunes, a great player and teacher, now passed, revered George Shearing, perhaps more than any other jazz musician. Warren had only a few jazz records (the one time I was at his house) and Shearing was well represented.

  24. #73

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    I have enjoyed this thread. Awesome member contribution including excellent playing by "Mr B".
    I'm currently doing a recap of this song. It's funny, because in my early years I used to hate it. Obviously I didn't get it, and the reason was that nobody else that I played with did. This was long before Internet and for most songs nobody had a reference other than Fake book (we were kids, mostly listening to records of contemporary pop-music). In every combo there was always someone that wanted to play "Stella" (!) and I did my best to see to that it never happened (for the benefit of me, the band and the audience).

    Then one day I heard a recording of Ella Fitzgerald and the Lou Levy quartet and thought "aha, this is what it is supposed to sound like!". Since that day, Ella has been my reference for "Stella By Starlight", the reference I needed to grasp the song, also whit a groove. (By the way, Lou and Ella played it in F, perfect for solo guitar).

    Nowadays, when working on a song, I listen to as many versions as possible and always the original to understand the composer intentions and then some cherry picking from other arrangements.
    This is the first time ever I hear the original "Stella by Starlight" and I have to say this is also the best version. Just wow.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup View Post
    So is the consensus that the first change is a diminished?
    A somewhat late reply Anyway, for those interested;
    I think I hear Esus4/-5 as the first chord in the original theme.
    Ella and Lou play in the key of F, which would make this first chord Bsus4/-5.
    I have played B7sus4...But B7sus4/-5 sounds pretty cool and would be closer to the original composition...very interesting.

  26. #75

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    It all comes back to those 4-3 suspensions, doesn't it? Everything seems to be about that ATM....

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    Many of the songs in the Real Book use Bill Evans changes.
    Very true, and sometimes they use the changes that Bill happened to use on just one chorus, or in one particular version of a tune he recorded many times. Thanks to the real Book, those changes are now burned into smartphones and ipads all over the world.

  28. #77

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    The why the fuck doesn’t it sound Iike Bill Evans chords when I play them? ;-)

  29. #78

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    I think I put it somewhere here... (I would not be surprised if Jordan's opening opst was inspired by his studies with Peter even)


  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I think I put it somewhere here... (I would not be surprised if Jordan's opening opst was inspired by his studies with Peter even)

    He talks about "diminished", but he plays Esus4add13/-5. (very close to the original opening chord).
    It's the suspended 4th, that makes the transition possible. (It becomes the root in the next chord).
    (The opening chord is not the key of the song)

  31. #80

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    As I understand it, the generally accepted approach to the 'original' chord is that it is a Bb diminished with a melody note A on top, that's why he calls it diminished (I think Barry Harris also says this).

    I think I've seen it referred to as Bb dim (maj7). It is certainly an ambiguous-sounding chord.

  32. #81

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    I view it as Dbo7 Cm7 F7, common chord progression.

    It's also quite common for dim7 chords to have non chord tones in the melody. You get it in really early stuff even. This note - the b6/b13 on the biiio7 comes up a lot, often as a suspension or passing tone, which is actually the case here...

  33. #82

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    We often substitute chords for various reasons; to alter the sound (re-harmonization), to facilitate improvisation, to facilitate finger setting, to solve the problem when we don't comprehend the chord symbol or when we find that what's written is a poor representation of the music (from an objective or subjective understanding). This is just Jazz, business as usual.

    Chords without extensions are easy to play and give me the opportunity to add my own. Jazz!

    Now, -what if the written changes don't make sense? We can fix it, no problem, provided there is a common reference for the music at hand (refer to my first post).

    -What if I play it true the way it was written, but can't make it fit into my logic? Then I can rationalize, whatever floats my boat.

    -What if I alter the changes in a song that has already been altered more than once? We can call it evolution or degeneration (or just Jazz!). All in the eyes of the beholder.

    Fact remains, If I remove the top melody note from the opening chord, it's still not a dim-chord.
    Is it close enough? Does anyone care? Could anyone tell the difference? Who am I to say. But I appreciate this thread.

    Also don't forget the performance guidelines for real Jazz musicians:


  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    He talks about "diminished", but he plays Esus4add13/-5. (very close to the original opening chord).
    It's the suspended 4th, that makes the transition possible. (It becomes the root in the next chord).
    (The opening chord is not the key of the song)
    the 4th - I would call it anticipation not suspension here... it describes better what happens here for me.
    The whole tune is built on these anticipation...

    he talks about things that are going on behind it... it is just different way of hearing things...
    I would say that his description goes from undercurrent to the surface...

    Actually he does it all the time... he thinks harmonically on basic 7th chords movement, even triads... and functional relation mostly... all the rest is more or less an embelishment or overlapping of harmonies.

    I think in that context for him it makes more sense just to draw the main path, the essence of turnaround....

    It's like.. you can think of a chord as of A-11 but followed by D7 it is essentially just A-7 with anticipation of the next chord in the melody... to me this description gives moreunderstanding and connects things better...

    At least in such a context

    the way we describe things when we discuss it is mostly the way we play them ... the way we make movement and connect harmonies and phrases...

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    Fact remains, If I remove the top melody note from the opening chord, it's still not a dim-chord.
    I'm curious to know more about this, as most people seem to think it's diminished. What chord do you think it is? I assume we're talking about the clip from the film music in post no. 1, where the melody starts after the intro. (unfortunately I can't listen to it at the moment).

  36. #85

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    Pretty unambiguously dim in the original, you can hear them helpfully playing an arpeggio in the left hand of the piano.



    Dim here, too



    Most jazz versions seem to go II-V though.... Long before Miles....

  37. #86

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    yes I was listening to the first clip yesterday and I thought it sounded like a diminished run on the piano.

  38. #87

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    Yeah, it's a dim7 arp starting and ending on Bb

  39. #88

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    The A is just part of the diminished scale. When demonstrating BH played the first chord and a diminished scale and says "that's what it is...that scale is the song." that second part I found very interesting, as off the hand remarks like that coming from him usually imply something big/important.
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  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I'm curious to know more about this, as most people seem to think it's diminished. What chord do you think it is? I assume we're talking about the clip from the film music in post no. 1, where the melody starts after the intro. (unfortunately I can't listen to it at the moment).
    If we remove the top melody note: Em7/-5
    Last edited by JCat; 02-05-2019 at 10:05 AM.

  41. #90

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    Hey that’s another thought someone hit me with the other day asking about writing out charts.

    Like many iim7 chords iim7b5 often anticipate the root of the V7 in the top voice.

    It’s reasonably common to write this as a iim11 but we don’t do this with IIm7b5 chords, we don’t have iim11b5

    One of those things

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    The A is just part of the diminished scale. When demonstrating BH played the first chord and a diminished scale and says "that's what it is...that scale is the song." that second part I found very interesting, as off the hand remarks like that coming from him usually imply something big/important.
    It’s also part of the D minor complex. Or if you like C7 —> third of A7. Same scale works on o7.

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    If we remove the top melody note: Em7/-5
    I don’t think you’ve checked out the original version.

  44. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I don’t think you’ve checked out the original version.
    Just scratching the surface.
    m7/-5 is also referred to as "half diminished". (The difference is a b7 compared to a bb7 "dim7"). The b7 (D) resolves into the major 3rd (C#) of the next chord. That has been my understanding and I like the sound. But I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong regarding the original version...

    By the way C# is the 13th in Esus4add13/-5 as played in the workshop referred to above.
    When I first listened to the original I didn't hear the C# (bb7). I'll have a closer look.

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    It’s also part of the D minor complex. Or if you like C7 —> third of A7. Same scale works on o7.
    right when he says diminished it includes all the related doms. I e-mailed Liane Fainsinger (she teaches Barry workshops in TO with Howard Rees) if the diminished scale was correct for scale outline. She said it's fine for the outline, but playing should be mixes of the related doms.

    she also answered that question about the #iv half to iv- scale outline, and she basically said the same thing as we thought, but she plays the change even in 1 bar phrase.
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  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    Just scratching the surface.
    m7/-5 is also referred to as "half diminished". (The difference is a b7 compared to a bb7 "dim7"). .
    get it through your skull christian
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  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    get it through your skull christian
    Sorry, this is obvious to you and most people posting here, but this thread has 8500 views. Maybe somebody out there will appreciate that info as part of the context. I sincerely hope no one was offended.

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    right when he says diminished it includes all the related doms. I e-mailed Liane Fainsinger (she teaches Barry workshops in TO with Howard Rees) if the diminished scale was correct for scale outline. She said it's fine for the outline, but playing should be mixes of the related doms.

    she also answered that question about the #iv half to iv- scale outline, and she basically said the same thing as we thought, but she plays the change even in 1 bar phrase.
    Well you could do it 1 2 3 5

    I’m not very good at that though. Need to get back to practicing that

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    get it through your skull christian
    lol

    Sorry guys, I guess I'm a bit dim. That's full dim, not half dim.

  50. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    Just scratching the surface.
    m7/-5 is also referred to as "half diminished". (The difference is a b7 compared to a bb7 "dim7"). The b7 (D) resolves into the major 3rd (C#) of the next chord. That has been my understanding and I like the sound. But I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong regarding the original version...
    Well that's good. The original opening chord from the movie soundtrack (posted above) is pretty much the most obvious Bbo7 you are ever likely to hear. They even arpeggiate it in the left hand of the piano part in case you didn't get it. Cheers, Victor.

    There's nothing 'wrong' with using the Em7b5 A7 progression. I would say this is pretty standard to most jazz players. If you like that sound, you are not alone.

    By the way C# is the 13th in Esus4add13/-5 as played in the workshop referred to above.
    When I first listened to the original I didn't hear the C# (bb7). I'll have a closer look.
    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    He talks about "diminished", but he plays Esus4add13/-5. (very close to the original opening chord).
    It's the suspended 4th, that makes the transition possible. (It becomes the root in the next chord).
    (The opening chord is not the key of the song)
    The chord Peter plays in the video above is

    x x 8 6 5 5

    Or Bb, Db/C#, E, A

    Which is a Bbo7 with an A instead of a G on top.

    If you want to call it an Esus4add13/-5, be my guest. You are introducing a bass note which I don't hear, so is entirely theoretical and seems a little OTT. You could also call it Eo7add11. Which is easier. But as Peter plays Bb in the bass, it's a Bbo7(maj7) in this case.

    Dim chord with non dim chord tones in the melody aren't terribly unusual.

    TBH, I tend to go with Peter on this stuff. He's quite good at jazz guitar, you know :-) And he knows the repertoire inside out. He will have checked out the original score and so on.

  51. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Well you could do it 1 2 3 5

    I’m not very good at that though. Need to get back to practicing that
    What What?