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Last edited by brent.h; 06-23-2026 at 12:17 PM.
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12-03-2025 12:08 AM
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You're certainly on the right track. I don't have the time right now to comb through the three recordings but let's look at your first example.
Despite RB charts suggesting otherwise, the opening chords to Satin Doll do alternate between D- and C#dim rather than D-7 G7. If the bass had gone to the V of D- (A), you might consider it an A7b9 but it moves to the IV (G). I can imagine an alternate version that combines both approaches and outlines a kind of CESH movement for the first 2 bars: D- A7b9 | D-7 G7.
Strangely enough, rather than repeating these moves up a tone, bars 3-4 follow convention with E-7 A7(9). We then have another curveball: A-7b5/D instead of a regular A-7. When performing the tune as a piano solo, Ellington usually played Eb in the bass at this point with C-G-D in the right hand. The ambiguity of the harmony (is it Cm7 or A-7b5?) is something that Monk picked up from Ellington. So basically, all the exact parallel ii-V moves either up a tone (D-7 G7 | D-7 G7 | E-7 A7 | E-7 A7) or down a semitone (A-7 D7 | Ab-7 Db7) that most people play are a convenient simplification of the reality. Duke was still playing these changes towards the end of his life so this early recording can't be considered a tentative first effort but the harmony as intended.
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There's another one. Most people play Eb9#11 for the 2nd chord but Mancini wrote Cm6/Eb. Wes plays Ebmaj9#11 - I love that and it's more an extension of the original change. Also, the min7b5 chords are now often converted to regular min7s. Yes, a beautiful ending that's a shortened version of the usual #4 cadence: Bm7b5 Bbm6 Fmaj7b5. It's not just decorative as each of those chords has an important part to play in the tune's harmonic scheme.
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Sometimes I feel the RealBook is an elaborate way of seeing what players do their homework and which ones are winging it haha
The problem for me is that early on I learned so much of the core repertoire from the RB. I actually find myself in the situation of not knowing what I don’t know, and often I find myself realising I’ve been playing tunes wrong for decades without realising it.
You can’t take anything for granted. The only definitive sources are the records themselves - and maybe original scores and lead sheets by the composers themselves.
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I mean Cm6/Eb to D7 in the key of F is one of the most beautiful moves... My favourite (and I'm not ashamed to say) it is the chord in the verse of All by Myself just before the line '...and making love was just for fun' - the music is of course a lift from Rachmaninoff.
Originally Posted by PMB
It's really just a II V I to Gm7 of course, so it's interesting it has such a different effect when you invert that first chord.
Eb9#11 makes me angry there now haha. Ruins the vibe.
Here's a nerdy deep dive into that move. Michael tracks it back to Mozart, but there's no doubt it has a strongly Romantic effect.
However - the sheet music I've seen has Cm/Eb - however listening again to the Mancini recording Brent posted I don't hear the bass moving until the D. The Eb sounds to me in the middle voice. I'm I hearing it right? It's almost like an F9 going to D7#11 and then D7. (The voice leading on the D7 chord reminds me of the famous Tristan leitmotif.)
Wes takes the romantic voice leading and blocks it into vertical colour. This is a standard jazz approach to the type of appoggiatura rich post-romantic harmony one finds in much Hollywood type music. Stella is the classic example. The tune is mostly appoggiaturas. Jazzers treat them as extensions.
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Well it's good to know the originals. And many players are simply ignorant of what the composers wrote - I'm certainly not blameless in this, I hadn't checked out Satin Doll in any depth at all lol. I literally just played it the other day with the RB changes. On a gig. In PUBLIC! Shame on me! ;-) Originally Posted by brent.h
But sometimes you learned a tune ages ago and haven't got around to properly going deep into it.
But while we might be very interested in preserving Ellington's or Monk's original changes as jazz performers, jazz musicians are not in the habit of playing romantic style Hollywood film soundtrack type harmony. How much the original harmony is preserved is always going to be a matter of personal taste and interpretation. The jazz world will no doubt be massively relieved to know that I don't think Jim Hall is a bad musician for playing the II-V version of Stella by Starlight - although there are a few details in that version which are different from the RB chart for that tune too. Also the Miles version is different again.
(II-V versions of the changes could also serve a pedagogical role for learning to apply bop language, not that that was the intention of the original RB AFAIK.)
Listening is good, I guess? Well done.
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It's not too clear on that recording but it's an F. Here's a live performance of the same arrangement where it's a little easier to hear the bass (despite the 'wow' from the original audio tape): Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Great thread, I had the same issue with the RB, my fav is Stella... what a mess right? the original supposed to be in other key with a beautiful counterpoint from the orchestra, the changes do not match at all with Harris or Berstein teachings... I quit on that one
Can anyone give me me light about the real changes of stella? I think starts with a diminished major 7 chord going to a B7b5, being that b5 the F note of the melody so Emb5 and Cm11... who wrote that?
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Originally Posted by Basshead
Great thread, I had the same issue with the RB, my fav is Stella... what a mess right? the original supposed to be in other key with a beautiful counterpoint from the orchestra, the changes do not match at all with Harris or Berstein teachings... I quit on that one
Can anyone give me me light about the real changes of stella? I think starts with a diminished major 7 chord going to a B7b5, being that b5 the F note of the melody so Emb5 and Cm11... who wrote that?
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Yeah is a bit like rhythm changes. The first four bars in my opinion should sound like one phrase. If you simply play the same turnaround twice it loses that. So you don’t play the G7 in bar 1 for instance, or have something more like this Originally Posted by brent.h
Bbmaj7 Bb6 | C-7 C-6 | D-7 D-6 | C-7 C-6
Or the Lester leaps in thing
None of these are the original changes of I got rhythm btw
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Exactly. It's the minor equivalent of a standard I vi ii V turnaround. You're free to play less (nothing but Em) or more by adding in the vi to the iReal default (Em C#ø7 | F#ø7 B7). Originally Posted by Christian Miller
All the usual tritone subs can be employed and although it won't work with this melody, the classic Andalusian descending progression - think Hit The Road Jack: Em D C B7 - is another option. The major version (G7 F7 | Eb7 D7) turns up in Jimmy Heath's rhythm changes tune, C.T.A.
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Yeah - that old bassline… a load of ways of putting chords that one of course, you can make it a better fit for the melody. Originally Posted by PMB
You can make it a four bar phrase by going my 1-b7-b6-5-4-b3-2-5
(Side note - Night Dreamers first few bars are a reharm of that C Eb7/Bb Ab^7 G7 . And when you see that, you realise the first bars of Giant Steps are a variation on that - the descending whole tone bass, anyway separate rabbit hole.)
Other options - BH style ascent descent for example
Cm6 Do7 | Cm6/Eb Fo7 | Cm/G Fo7 | Cm6/Eb Do7
That sounds swingy
Or something more sophisticated with borrowed notes etc.
Anything that creates a shape. The bassline is important here.
I bet Peter Bernstein has some cool moves on this. He has a thing about staying off the I…
Of course the bassline thing is by the by if you are playing with a bass player. A good one will create a shape in the song anyway. And then it’s up to the guitarist to listen to what’s going on and y’know comp…. In early styles it’s fun to lock with the bass. Obviously that’s not the style for later things.
Again certain members of the forum will roll their eyes but this stuff reminds me of baroque music. The chaconnes, passacaglias and other short period ground bass variations are basically the same type of thing. Sometimes it’s a bit hipper. We are all downstream of the GASB and locked into the 2/4/8/16/32 regular form thing more than those guys were. Purcell’s famous Dido’s Lament is a 5 bar phrase.
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Oh btw the basic Barry Harris ascending borrowed thee voice note pattern in major is a very good Rhythm A section variation and has a lot in common with Bud’s Celia - and Ain’t Misbehaving etc.
Took me an embarrassingly long period of time to realise that.
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Speaking of rhythm changes, I only realised recently that if you play the original C#o7 rather than Em7 A7 for bar 1 of Stella by Starlight, its basically the same as the opening to Gershwin's original I Got Rhythm from the middle of bar 3: | Bb6 Gm7 | Cm7 F7 | Dm7 C#o7 | C-7 F7 | F-7 Bb7 | Ebmaj7 Ab7 | Bb6.
While it's really useful to check out the original changes to tunes, IMO they should act as a point of departure. I agree that the incessant ii-V conversions of the RB can be detrimental in many cases yet insightful reharms and different rhythmic feels can also bring new life to standards.
For example, Sheryl Bailey posted a set of changes with a kind of Benny Golson vibe for Stella some years ago that are great for blowing purposes. In place of the standard changes in bars 9-12, (| Bbmaj7 | Eø7 A7b9 | Dm7 | Bb-7 Eb9 |) try: | Gm7 Fm7 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 C-7 | Bø7 Bbm6 |.
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nice. the next chords could be Am7 Dm7|Gm7 C7|Am7b5 | D7||G7+ etc ? that is what i play in bar 13-16. do people usually play the RB in bar 13-16 there? |Fmaj|Em7b5 A7| Am7b5| D7||? i never liked that. Originally Posted by PMB
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Yeah get that ugly BS outta here. Weak bass motion Originally Posted by djg
Miles has E-7b5 Ebmaj7 Am7b5 D7 IIRC
The original changes for that whole section are so nice but super old school - you probably know them of course
Bb Gm6 Dm Db7#11 F/C Bbo7 A-7b5 D7
Basslines man
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Side note to your side note: bar 3 of Shorter's Fee Fi Fo Fum has the same changes (B D7) as bar 1 of Giant Steps. Two monster tunes! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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It think it's just an Am7b5, the root is dispensible in m7b5 chords. Originally Posted by brent.h
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ooh! didn’t know you were also a enlightened music teacher! Originally Posted by Mick-7
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I do: Originally Posted by brent.h
x x 10 11 10 10
x x 7 8 8 8
x x 7 8 8 10
(x x 4 4 4 6
x x 3 4 4 4
x x 3 4 4 6
x 3 5 4 5 3)
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Yes, we all have different ears!! Originally Posted by brent.h
I find your X X (7) 7 7 10 a bit 'brangy', sort of the cowboy G major voicing. Sorry.
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I didn't listen to it before but the bass is alternating between D & A, so it is going from Am7 to D7, I'm not hearing a b5 (Eb). Originally Posted by brent.h
Simplest way to play it would be something like:
Am11 | x-12-x-12-13-10 | > D7 | x-x-12-11-13-10 |
Or maybe: | x-12-x-12-13-10 | > D7b5 | x-11-x-11-13-10 | > Db13 | 9-x-9-10-11-x |
You can hold the chords while playing the melody notes of D (10th fret on 6 string) & C (13th fret on 5th string).Last edited by Mick-7; 01-13-2026 at 12:21 PM.
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