Need help with the original changes

[brent.h]

I'm hearing that things in the original recordings that don't quite line up with the changes in the realbook, but I can't quite confirm what they are. My ears aren't that great. I can't find the sheet music to some of these tunes, too.

I know in the larger scheme of things that it doesn't matter while jamming, but I'd like to know/confirm what I'm hearing. There are 4 spots I need help with (labelled #1 to #4).

If you're willing to help, first of all, thanks. Second, the recordings below are not at the 'correct' pitch, so you'll have to tune your guitar.

SATIN DOLL

#1 Bars 1 & 2
- RB: D-7, G7
- My ears: D-, C# dim; sounds like some Barry Harris thing here, going back and forth between D minor and the diminished chord.

#2 Bar 5
- RB: A-7, D7
- My ears: I can hear a D bass, a long C tone, and the melody with D and C... but there's this crunch of a major 2nd or minor 2nd, I can't figure this out. Towards the end of this bar I can hear an F#. Could the chord be D7b5?

I COVER THE WATERFRONT

#3 Bar 24:
- RB: A-7, D7
- My ears: C-6/A, B7/A
- How I play this: X-0-7-8-8-8, X-0-4-4-4-5

ON GREEN DOLPHIN STREET
(gonna write everything in Db, the original key of the tune)

#4 Bars 29-32
- RB: F-7, Bb7 | Eb-7, Ab7 | Db6 | Eb-7, Ab7
- My ears: Db6, Db- | Ab, D#11(?) | Db | Db
- How I play this: X-X-11-10-11-X, X-X-11-9-9-X | X-X-10-8-9-X, X-X-12-11-9-X | X-X-11-10-9-X

[PMB]

You're certainly on the right track. I don't have the time right now to comb through the three recordings but let's look at your first example.

Despite RB charts suggesting otherwise, the opening chords to Satin Doll do alternate between D- and C#dim rather than D-7 G7. If the bass had gone to the V of D- (A), you might consider it an A7b9 but it moves to the IV (G). I can imagine an alternate version that combines both approaches and outlines a kind of CESH movement for the first 2 bars: D- A7b9 | D-7 G7.

Strangely enough, rather than repeating these moves up a tone, bars 3-4 follow convention with E-7 A7(9). We then have another curveball: A-7b5/D instead of a regular A-7. When performing the tune as a piano solo, Ellington usually played Eb in the bass at this point with C-G-D in the right hand. The ambiguity of the harmony (is it Cm7 or A-7b5?) is something that Monk picked up from Ellington. So basically, all the exact parallel ii-V moves either up a tone (D-7 G7 | D-7 G7 | E-7 A7 | E-7 A7) or down a semitone (A-7 D7 | Ab-7 Db7) that most people play are a convenient simplification of the reality. Duke was still playing these changes towards the end of his life so this early recording can't be considered a tentative first effort but the harmony as intended.

[brent.h]

Cheers.

Yeah, I get that RB simplifies things to makes tunes more playable and more accessible to more people.

But man, some of these original changes are so killing; the complex movements and harmonic textures... it adds so much 'emotional depth' behind/beneath the melody that the melody itself hits you in a different way.

I haven't had the time to write it out in full over here, but I remember vaguely that the original changes in the original recording of The Days of Wine and Roses as being so deeply moving. I'm aware that it could have been the orchestration and instrumentation that got to me, but when I was working out the harmony for the first time, I remember thinking, "Whoa this sh*t is really intense," and it was quite different from the RB changes.

Loved the ending of the tune, too.

[PMB]

There's another one. Most people play Eb9#11 for the 2nd chord but Mancini wrote Cm6/Eb. Wes plays Ebmaj9#11 - I love that and it's more an extension of the original change. Also, the min7b5 chords are now often converted to regular min7s. Yes, a beautiful ending that's a shortened version of the usual #4 cadence: Bm7b5 Bbm6 Fmaj7b5. It's not just decorative as each of those chords has an important part to play in the tune's harmonic scheme.

[brent.h]

Yeah, lots of b5 sounds in this tune.

In bar 3, I hear the harmony D7b5 for the first 2 beats then it settles onto D7 for the remainder of the bar and bar 4. That movement, D7b5 to D7, what is this called? An appoggiatura?

D7b5: X-X-10-11-9-10
D7: X-X-12-11-10-8 (closed voicing)

[Christian Miller]

Sometimes I feel the RealBook is an elaborate way of seeing what players do their homework and which ones are winging it haha

The problem for me is that early on I learned so much of the core repertoire from the RB. I actually find myself in the situation of not knowing what I don’t know, and often I find myself realising I’ve been playing tunes wrong for decades without realising it.

You can’t take anything for granted. The only definitive sources are the records themselves - and maybe original scores and lead sheets by the composers themselves.


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[brent.h]

Sometimes I feel the RealBook is an elaborate way of seeing what players do their homework and which ones are winging it haha

The problem for me is that early on I learned so much of the core repertoire from the RB. I actually find myself in the situation of not knowing what I don’t know, and often I find myself realising I’ve been playing tunes wrong for decades without realising it.

You can’t take anything for granted. The only definitive sources are the records themselves - and maybe original scores and lead sheets by the composers themselves.


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Personally, my default method of learning is the original/earliest recordings by ear because I don't read too well. If I manage to get my hands on the original sheet music, I read it very slowly and use it to check if my ears got the melodies and notes right. I don't use sheet music or RB to the learn the music visually. (Maybe I should, which will save lots of time).

And yeah, RB has always been problematic for me. The parts of the song that are actually simple get two-fived to death, and the parts that are really rich (see OGDS above) get oversimplified and so watered down... with more two-fives. I know the RBs were put together by students who just needed that convenience, but that indiscriminate use of two-fives is really heavy handed. To me this inadvertently sends the message that lots of music is 2-5, or can be reduced to 2-5, or interpreted as a 2-5. So many 2-5s... Kinda erases the uniqueness of a tune's harmony.

[Christian Miller]

There's another one. Most people play Eb9#11 for the 2nd chord but Mancini wrote Cm6/Eb. Wes plays Ebmaj9#11 - I love that and it's more an extension of the original change. Also, the min7b5 chords are now often converted to regular min7s. Yes, a beautiful ending that's a shortened version of the usual #4 cadence: Bm7b5 Bbm6 Fmaj7b5. It's not just decorative as each of those chords has an important part to play in the tune's harmonic scheme.

I mean Cm6/Eb to D7 in the key of F is one of the most beautiful moves... My favourite (and I'm not ashamed to say) it is the chord in the verse of All by Myself just before the line '...and making love was just for fun' - the music is of course a lift from Rachmaninoff.

It's really just a II V I to Gm7 of course, so it's interesting it has such a different effect when you invert that first chord.

Eb9#11 makes me angry there now haha. Ruins the vibe.

Here's a nerdy deep dive into that move. Michael tracks it back to Mozart, but there's no doubt it has a strongly Romantic effect.

However - the sheet music I've seen has Cm/Eb - however listening again to the Mancini recording Brent posted I don't hear the bass moving until the D. The Eb sounds to me in the middle voice. I'm I hearing it right? It's almost like an F9 going to D7#11 and then D7. (The voice leading on the D7 chord reminds me of the famous Tristan leitmotif.)

Wes takes the romantic voice leading and blocks it into vertical colour. This is a standard jazz approach to the type of appoggiatura rich post-romantic harmony one finds in much Hollywood type music. Stella is the classic example. The tune is mostly appoggiaturas. Jazzers treat them as extensions.

[Christian Miller]

Personally, my default method of learning is the original/earliest recordings by ear because I don't read too well. If I manage to get my hands on the original sheet music, I read it very slowly and use it to check if my ears got the melodies and notes right. I don't use sheet music or RB to the learn the music visually. (Maybe I should, which will save lots of time).

And yeah, RB has always been problematic for me. The parts of the song that are actually simple get two-fived to death, and the parts that are really rich (see OGDS above) get oversimplified and so watered down... with more two-fives. I know the RBs were put together by students who just needed that convenience, but that indiscriminate use of two-fives is really heavy handed. To me this inadvertently sends the message that lots of music is 2-5, or can be reduced to 2-5, or interpreted as a 2-5. So many 2-5s... Kinda erases the uniqueness of a tune's harmony.

Well it's good to know the originals. And many players are simply ignorant of what the composers wrote - I'm certainly not blameless in this, I hadn't checked out Satin Doll in any depth at all lol. I literally just played it the other day with the RB changes. On a gig. In PUBLIC! Shame on me! ;-)

But sometimes you learned a tune ages ago and haven't got around to properly going deep into it.

But while we might be very interested in preserving Ellington's or Monk's original changes as jazz performers, jazz musicians are not in the habit of playing romantic style Hollywood film soundtrack type harmony. How much the original harmony is preserved is always going to be a matter of personal taste and interpretation. The jazz world will no doubt be massively relieved to know that I don't think Jim Hall is a bad musician for playing the II-V version of Stella by Starlight - although there are a few details in that version which are different from the RB chart for that tune too. Also the Miles version is different again.

(II-V versions of the changes could also serve a pedagogical role for learning to apply bop language, not that that was the intention of the original RB AFAIK.)

Listening is good, I guess? Well done.

[brent.h]

jazz musicians are not in the habit of playing romantic style Hollywood film soundtrack type harmony.

True. And I recognise that that's the feature of jazz (for better or worse): the improvisors and their improvisations are valued a bit more than the composition.

II-V versions of the changes could also serve a pedagogical role for learning to apply bop language

Yeah, the 'Standard Operating Harmonic Unit That Enables Jazz Improvisation' is the 2-5. I'd like to imagine that in a parallel universe, musicians have other 'Standard Operating Harmonic Units That Enable Jazz Improvisation', not just the 2-5. That'd be interesting.

[PMB]

The sheet music I've seen has Cm/Eb - however listening again to the Mancini recording Brent posted I don't hear the bass moving until the D. The Eb sounds to me in the middle voice. I'm I hearing it right? It's almost like an F9 going to D7#11 and then D7. (The voice leading on the D7 chord reminds me of the famous Tristan leitmotif.

It's not too clear on that recording but it's an F. Here's a live performance of the same arrangement where it's a little easier to hear the bass (despite the 'wow' from the original audio tape):

[brent.h]

Here's some really unnecessary two-five-cation I noticed in the RB that takes away from the music.

SOFTLY, AS IN A MORNING SUNRISE
(gonna write everything in G, the original key of the tune)

Bars 2, 4, elsewhere
- RB: F#-7b5, B7
- sheet music: A-
- 1st recording: A-

I know that F#-7b5 is basically A-6 with an F# in the bass, I'm kinda ok with this. The thing I'm not ok with is the addition of so many B7s.

I know this seems like such a small thing, but I feel this has a significant impact on the music.

Now that there's so many B7s in the A section, I, the listener, become 'desensitised' to the sound. I don't feel the real impact of the B7 when it really happens in the second half of the section.

Original changes in A section:

E- | A- | E- | A-
E- | B7 | E- | B7

RB changes in A section:

E- | F#-7b5, B7 | E- | F#-7b5, B7
E- | F#-7b5, B7 | E- | F#-7b5, B7

--------------------------

sheet music: https://www.sheetmusicsinger.com/wp-...heet_music.pdf

first recording:

--------------------------

Edit:

Also, why can't a plain F#7 be played? It's a great, old-timey, classic sound.

Bar 22
- RB: A-7
- sheet music: F#7
- 1st recording: F#7

[Basshead]

Great thread, I had the same issue with the RB, my fav is Stella... what a mess right? the original supposed to be in other key with a beautiful counterpoint from the orchestra, the changes do not match at all with Harris or Berstein teachings... I quit on that one

Can anyone give me me light about the real changes of stella? I think starts with a diminished major 7 chord going to a B7b5, being that b5 the F note of the melody so Emb5 and Cm11... who wrote that?

[PMB]

Great thread, I had the same issue with the RB, my fav is Stella... what a mess right? the original supposed to be in other key with a beautiful counterpoint from the orchestra, the changes do not match at all with Harris or Berstein teachings... I quit on that one

Can anyone give me me light about the real changes of stella? I think starts with a diminished major 7 chord going to a B7b5, being that b5 the F note of the melody so Emb5 and Cm11... who wrote that?

[Christian Miller]

Here's some really unnecessary two-five-cation I noticed in the RB that takes away from the music.

SOFTLY, AS IN A MORNING SUNRISE
(gonna write everything in G, the original key of the tune)

Bars 2, 4, elsewhere
- RB: F#-7b5, B7
- sheet music: A-
- 1st recording: A-

I know that F#-7b5 is basically A-6 with an F# in the bass, I'm kinda ok with this. The thing I'm not ok with is the addition of so many B7s.

I know this seems like such a small thing, but I feel this has a significant impact on the music.

Now that there's so many B7s in the A section, I, the listener, become 'desensitised' to the sound. I don't feel the real impact of the B7 when it really happens in the second half of the section.

Original changes in A section:

E- | A- | E- | A-
E- | B7 | E- | B7

RB changes in A section:

E- | F#-7b5, B7 | E- | F#-7b5, B7
E- | F#-7b5, B7 | E- | F#-7b5, B7

--------------------------

sheet music: https://www.sheetmusicsinger.com/wp-...heet_music.pdf

first recording:

--------------------------

Edit:

Also, why can't a plain F#7 be played? It's a great, old-timey, classic sound.

Bar 22
- RB: A-7
- sheet music: F#7
- 1st recording: F#7

Yeah is a bit like rhythm changes. The first four bars in my opinion should sound like one phrase. If you simply play the same turnaround twice it loses that. So you don’t play the G7 in bar 1 for instance, or have something more like this

Bbmaj7 Bb6 | C-7 C-6 | D-7 D-6 | C-7 C-6

Or the Lester leaps in thing

None of these are the original changes of I got rhythm btw

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[PMB]

Yeah is a bit like rhythm changes. The first four bars in my opinion should sound like one phrase. If you simply play the same turnaround twice it loses that. So you don’t play the G7 in bar 1 for instance, or have something more like this

Bbmaj7 Bb6 | C-7 C-6 | D-7 D-6 | C-7 C-6

Or the Lester leaps in thing

None of these are the original changes of I got rhythm btw

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Exactly. It's the minor equivalent of a standard I vi ii V turnaround. You're free to play less (nothing but Em) or more by adding in the vi to the iReal default (Em C#ø7 | F#ø7 B7).

All the usual tritone subs can be employed and although it won't work with this melody, the classic Andalusian descending progression - think Hit The Road Jack: Em D C B7 - is another option. The major version (G7 F7 | Eb7 D7) turns up in Jimmy Heath's rhythm changes tune, C.T.A.

[Christian Miller]

Exactly. It's the minor equivalent of a standard I vi ii V turnaround. You're free to play less (nothing but Em) or more by adding in the vi to the iReal default (Em C#ø7 | F#ø7 B7).

All the usual tritone subs can be employed and although it won't work with this melody, the classic Andalusian descending progression - think Hit The Road Jack: Em D C B7 - is another option. The major version (G7 F7 | Eb7 D7) turns up in Jimmy Heath's rhythm changes tune, C.T.A.

Yeah - that old bassline… a load of ways of putting chords that one of course, you can make it a better fit for the melody.

You can make it a four bar phrase by going my 1-b7-b6-5-4-b3-2-5

(Side note - Night Dreamers first few bars are a reharm of that C Eb7/Bb Ab^7 G7 . And when you see that, you realise the first bars of Giant Steps are a variation on that - the descending whole tone bass, anyway separate rabbit hole.)

Other options - BH style ascent descent for example

Cm6 Do7 | Cm6/Eb Fo7 | Cm/G Fo7 | Cm6/Eb Do7

That sounds swingy

Or something more sophisticated with borrowed notes etc.

Anything that creates a shape. The bassline is important here.

I bet Peter Bernstein has some cool moves on this. He has a thing about staying off the I…

Of course the bassline thing is by the by if you are playing with a bass player. A good one will create a shape in the song anyway. And then it’s up to the guitarist to listen to what’s going on and y’know comp…. In early styles it’s fun to lock with the bass. Obviously that’s not the style for later things.

Again certain members of the forum will roll their eyes but this stuff reminds me of baroque music. The chaconnes, passacaglias and other short period ground bass variations are basically the same type of thing. Sometimes it’s a bit hipper. We are all downstream of the GASB and locked into the 2/4/8/16/32 regular form thing more than those guys were. Purcell’s famous Dido’s Lament is a 5 bar phrase.

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[Christian Miller]

Oh btw the basic Barry Harris ascending borrowed thee voice note pattern in major is a very good Rhythm A section variation and has a lot in common with Bud’s Celia - and Ain’t Misbehaving etc.

Took me an embarrassingly long period of time to realise that.


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[PMB]

Speaking of rhythm changes, I only realised recently that if you play the original C#o7 rather than Em7 A7 for bar 1 of Stella by Starlight, its basically the same as the opening to Gershwin's original I Got Rhythm from the middle of bar 3: | Bb6 Gm7 | Cm7 F7 | Dm7 C#o7 | C-7 F7 | F-7 Bb7 | Ebmaj7 Ab7 | Bb6.

While it's really useful to check out the original changes to tunes, IMO they should act as a point of departure. I agree that the incessant ii-V conversions of the RB can be detrimental in many cases yet insightful reharms and different rhythmic feels can also bring new life to standards.

For example, Sheryl Bailey posted a set of changes with a kind of Benny Golson vibe for Stella some years ago that are great for blowing purposes. In place of the standard changes in bars 9-12, (| Bbmaj7 | Eø7 A7b9 | Dm7 | Bb-7 Eb9 |) try: | Gm7 Fm7 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 C-7 | Bø7 Bbm6 |.

[djg]

Speaking of rhythm changes, I only realised recently that if you play the original C#o7 rather than Em7 A7 for bar 1 of Stella by Starlight, its basically the same as the opening to Gershwin's original I Got Rhythm from the middle of bar 3: | Bb6 Gm7 | Cm7 F7 | Dm7 C#o7 | C-7 F7 | F-7 Bb7 | Ebmaj7 Ab7 | Bb6.

While it's really useful to check out the original changes to tunes, IMO they should act as a point of departure. I agree that the incessant ii-V conversions of the RB can be detrimental in many cases yet insightful reharms and different rhythmic feels can also bring new life to standards.

For example, Sheryl Bailey posted a set of changes with a kind of Benny Golson vibe for Stella some years ago that are great for blowing purposes. In place of the standard changes in bars 9-12, (| Bbmaj7 | Eø7 A7b9 | Dm7 | Bb-7 Eb9 |) try: | Gm7 Fm7 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 C-7 | Bø7 Bbm6 |.

nice. the next chords could be Am7 Dm7|Gm7 C7|Am7b5 | D7||G7+ etc ? that is what i play in bar 13-16. do people usually play the RB in bar 13-16 there? |Fmaj|Em7b5 A7| Am7b5| D7||? i never liked that.

[Christian Miller]

nice. the next chords could be Am7 Dm7|Gm7 C7|Am7b5 | D7||G7+ etc ? that is what i play in bar 13-16. do people usually play the RB in bar 13-16 there? |Fmaj|Em7b5 A7| Am7b5| D7||? i never liked that.

Yeah get that ugly BS outta here. Weak bass motion

Miles has E-7b5 Ebmaj7 Am7b5 D7 IIRC

The original changes for that whole section are so nice but super old school - you probably know them of course

Bb Gm6 Dm Db7#11 F/C Bbo7 A-7b5 D7

Basslines man

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[PMB]

(Side note - Night Dreamers first few bars are a reharm of that C Eb7/Bb Ab^7 G7 . And when you see that, you realise the first bars of Giant Steps are a variation on that - the descending whole tone bass, anyway separate rabbit hole.)

Side note to your side note: bar 3 of Shorter's Fee Fi Fo Fum has the same changes (B D7) as bar 1 of Giant Steps. Two monster tunes!

[brent.h]

I'm hearing that things in the original recordings that don't quite line up with the changes in the realbook, but I can't quite confirm what they are. My ears aren't that great. I can't find the sheet music to some of these tunes, too.

I know in the larger scheme of things that it doesn't matter while jamming, but I'd like to know/confirm what I'm hearing. There are 4 spots I need help with (labelled #1 to #4).

If you're willing to help, first of all, thanks. Second, the recordings below are not at the 'correct' pitch, so you'll have to tune your guitar.

SATIN DOLL

#1 Bars 1 & 2
- RB: D-7, G7
- My ears: D-, C# dim; sounds like some Barry Harris thing here, going back and forth between D minor and the diminished chord.

#2 Bar 5
- RB: A-7, D7
- My ears: I can hear a D bass, a long C tone, and the melody with D and C... but there's this crunch of a major 2nd or minor 2nd, I can't figure this out. Towards the end of this bar I can hear an F#. Could the chord be D7b5?

I COVER THE WATERFRONT

#3 Bar 24:
- RB: A-7, D7
- My ears: C-6/A, B7/A
- How I play this: X-0-7-8-8-8, X-0-4-4-4-5

ON GREEN DOLPHIN STREET
(gonna write everything in Db, the original key of the tune)

#4 Bars 29-32
- RB: F-7, Bb7 | Eb-7, Ab7 | Db6 | Eb-7, Ab7
- My ears: Db6, Db- | Ab, D#11(?) | Db | Db
- How I play this: X-X-11-10-11-X, X-X-11-9-9-X | X-X-10-8-9-X, X-X-12-11-9-X | X-X-11-10-9-X

I got it.

Satin Doll, Bar 5, it's Cmin9, then a D7. Both chords are played against a D bass. So,

X-X-(8)-8-8-10
then
X-X-(7)-7-7-8
then
X-X-(7)-7-7-10

Notes in brackets are optional.

The Cmin9 against a D bass is wonderfully complex.

[Mick-7]

I got it.

Satin Doll, Bar 5, it's Cmin9, then a D7. Both chords are played against a D bass. So,

X-X-(8)-8-8-10
then
X-X-(7)-7-7-8
then
X-X-(7)-7-7-10

Notes in brackets are optional.

The Cmin9 against a D bass is wonderfully complex.

It think it's just an Am7b5, the root is dispensible in m7b5 chords.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

It think it's just an Am7b5, the root is dispensible in m7b5 chords.

ooh! didn’t know you were also a enlightened music teacher!