Tunes that use the VII as a major triad or dominant chord prominently.

[brent.h]

..

[garybaldy]

Blue Turning Grey
Home

[pamosmusic]

Heartaches and Whispering use that chord as an off chord going back to I, yeah?

I love that chord. I learned Heartaches off Patsy Clines recording a few weeks ago.

I Remember You
Slow Boat to China
It Could Happen to You

If I Loved you has the big common tone diminished 7 in bar two that that chord is often derived from

Not the VII chord but if you want dominant resolving up a whole step it’s particularly common with the III going to IV ….

Someday my Prince
Sunny Side of the Street
Ill Be Seeing You
also Slow Boat

[garybaldy]

The Sound of Music!!
Only realised this recently but saw the film in the 60s!

[pamosmusic]

haha I'm hearing it more like a Eb with a F bass (F diminished major 7)

F diminished major is E over F, right?

Thats why that common tone diminished gets subbed for the VII7 going to I

[pamosmusic]

If that counts, add Corcovado

[ragman1]

I'm probably being slow but I don't get this. The VII chord as a major? There are lots of tunes where the VII is a dominant but a major? Bit lost there.

[pamosmusic]

Seven Come Eleven?

I feel like there are a lot of swing tunes that do that rhythm changes bridge starting one step further away. Stompin at the Savoy does something like that. Starts on IV but functions like VII to III

[Mick-7]

I'm probably being slow but I don't get this. The VII chord as a major? There are lots of tunes where the VII is a dominant but a major? Bit lost there.

Me neither, especially since there are no VII chords at all - major, minor, or dominant - in Alone Together (the only tune listed in the op's first post that I'm familiar with).

[pamosmusic]

Me neither, especially since there are no VII chords at all - major, minor, or dominant - in Alone Together (the only tune listed in the op's first post that I'm familiar with).

I assumed the E7 at the end of the A section

[Mick-7]

I assumed the E7 at the end of the A section

In what key? In D minor it goes to the parallel major there (Dmaj7) so the Em7b5 is a II chord (if that's the chord you're referring to).

[pamosmusic]

In what key? In D minor it goes to the parallel major there (Dmaj7) so the Em7b5 is a II chord (if that's the chord you're referring to).

Bm7 E7 Gm7 C7 to the F right before the bar you're talking about.

We've had a whole thread about this yeah?

I believe we settled on the original being an Ab dim (maj 7) going to Gm7. Which isn't quite the same thing Brent is talking about, but it's my best guess.

[Mick-7]

by major i mean major triad.. maybe i should have been clearer with my post title.

I hear the E7 as the VII, C7 as the V, F as the I.

I see... problem is that the tune is in a minor key, not a major one, in this case D minor, not its relative major key, F Major. And how is a chord [ E7(b9) ] that occurs only once in the entire tune "prominent"?

[pamosmusic]

I see... problem is that the tune is in a minor key, not a major one, in this case D minor, not its relative major key, F Major. And how is a chord [ E7(b9) ] that occurs only once in the entire tune "prominent"?

Sticks out like a sore thumb.

Honestly kind of hard for a VII to I movement to not be prominent.

And sure -- it's in Dm, but can we all agree that the concept of a prevailing key is a pretty loose one in a jazz tune, especially with respect to closely related spots like relative major and minor?

[Mick-7]

Sticks out like a sore thumb.

Honestly kind of hard for a VII to I movement to not be prominent.

And sure -- it's in Dm, but can we all agree that the concept of a prevailing key is a pretty loose one in a jazz tune, especially with respect to closely related spots like relative major and minor?

Just trying to understand what chord he's referencing, the tune has lots of Em7b5 chords (the VII chord in F major) in it, but only a half measure of E7(b9) in the entire tune.

[pamosmusic]

Just trying to understand what chord he's referencing, the tune has lots of Em7b5 chords (the VII chord in F major) in it, but only a half measure of E7 in the entire tune.

It’s “two fived” so easy to just call it a whole bar. But check out the other tunes.

Bars 3-4 of Heartaches (Dexter or Patsy Cline)

Bar 2 of I Remember You (Chet Baker or Bird)

Bar 4 or 10 of Slow Boat (Sonny Rollins)

Bar 4 of It Could Happen to You

Bars 3-4 of Whispering/Groovin High (Dizzy)

Bar 7 or Corcovado … maybe bars 3-4 too?

[ragman1]

by major i mean major triad.. maybe i should have been clearer with my post title

So dominant is okay. Oh, well, there are lots of them! In C, for example, that would be B7 to Em or E7, I assume. Or even a modulation into E major. Probably passing ii-V's don't really count, though.

What are you going to do with the list?

[setemupjoe]

Lover by Rodgers & Hart. It’s the second chord. The song descends chromatically.

My favorite use of the VII7 is the last chord in the bridge of Jerome Kern’s The Song is You. In the key of C the bridge finishes on a B7 that resolves into the C chord for the last A section. Brilliant!

[Christian Miller]

It’s a little more subtle, but the original changes to Georgia

Has I VII7 IIm7 V7 instead of the usual turnaround. Old school!


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[PMB]

The opening of Dream (Johnny Mercer) and Meditation (Antonio Carlos Jobim).

[Christian Miller]

More modern one

What Wayne plays on it is kind of old fashioned tho. Lots of whole tone… 30s vibes.


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[Tal_175]

So I was watching a Jens Larsen video on comping, and Jens talks about how Joe Pass (at some workshop) interprets the changes to Stella By Starlight (5min 19sec)

He hears the opening chord as an A7, a VII chord!

Wow, this is changing how I understand/hear the tune.

I didn't watch the video but ii-V of iii is commonly substituted with #IV diminished (or I diminished) which is also VII7. Joe Pass often treated #IVdiminished as chromatic approach to I with a dominant. So:
F#o Cmaj, he would play B7 Cmaj.
In the case of Stella, Emin7b A7 is ii V of iii (Dmin) so common substitution would be Eo (or Bbo) which is A7b9,

[pamosmusic]

In the case of Stella, Emin7b A7 is ii V of iii (Dmin) so common substitution would be Eo (or Bbo) which is A7b9,

Probably the other way around.

That big orchestral Bbo(maj7) chord suggests some dominant substitutions and the jazzers made the swap.

Em7b5 A7 doesn’t go to Dm. Maybe a little more compelling is that it’s related by way of that diminished chord to (and often subbed out for) Gm7 C7.

That would give you Gm C7 Cm F7 Fm Bb7 Eb … which is more recognizable to a jazz dork.

But that diminished major 7 is so pretty.

[Christian Miller]

I hear Charlie Parker as playing that first chord as an VII7 even though the orchestra is playing #IVo7 or bIIIo7? Which is to say he plays III harmonic minor.

So A7 on Dbo7/Eo7 in the standard jam sesh key.

I mean it makes sense. The two chords are closely related.

You would use the same move on Corcovado, Inensatez etc.

It's also the origin of the Alone Together sub, which differs from the Stella by using a regular II-7 as part of the II-V (but really it's the usual 11th, perhaps the most common note on a II chord in the standards repertoire for various reasons, so could be either a natural 5 or b5 on that chord)

Abo7 G-7 C7 Fmaj7

(B-7) E7 G-7 C7 Fmaj7

[Tal_175]

Em7b5 A7 doesn’t go to Dm. Maybe a little more compelling is that it’s related by way of that diminished chord to (and often subbed out for) Gm7 C7.

ii V of iii doesn't have to go to iii it can work as deceptive cadence. The same substitution happens in I Remember You. There are of course other ways to see it like any other harmonic device.