Tunes that use the VII as a major triad or dominant chord prominently.

[Christian Miller]

More modern one

What Wayne plays on it is kind of old fashioned tho. Lots of whole tone… 30s vibes.


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[brent.h]

More modern one

What Wayne plays on it is kind of old fashioned tho. Lots of whole tone… 30s vibes. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not gonna lie.. took me a few listens to hear it haha

[brent.h]

So I was watching a Jens Larsen video on comping, and Jens talks about how Joe Pass (at some workshop) interprets the changes to Stella By Starlight (5min 19sec)

He hears the opening chord as an A7, a VII chord!

Wow, this is changing how I understand/hear the tune.

[Tal_175]

So I was watching a Jens Larsen video on comping, and Jens talks about how Joe Pass (at some workshop) interprets the changes to Stella By Starlight (5min 19sec)

He hears the opening chord as an A7, a VII chord!

Wow, this is changing how I understand/hear the tune.

I didn't watch the video but ii-V of iii is commonly substituted with #IV diminished (or I diminished) which is also VII7. Joe Pass often treated #IVdiminished as chromatic approach to I with a dominant. So:
F#o Cmaj, he would play B7 Cmaj.
In the case of Stella, Emin7b A7 is ii V of iii (Dmin) so common substitution would be Eo (or Bbo) which is A7b9,

[pamosmusic]

In the case of Stella, Emin7b A7 is ii V of iii (Dmin) so common substitution would be Eo (or Bbo) which is A7b9,

Probably the other way around.

That big orchestral Bbo(maj7) chord suggests some dominant substitutions and the jazzers made the swap.

Em7b5 A7 doesn’t go to Dm. Maybe a little more compelling is that it’s related by way of that diminished chord to (and often subbed out for) Gm7 C7.

That would give you Gm C7 Cm F7 Fm Bb7 Eb … which is more recognizable to a jazz dork.

But that diminished major 7 is so pretty.

[Christian Miller]

I hear Charlie Parker as playing that first chord as an VII7 even though the orchestra is playing #IVo7 or bIIIo7? Which is to say he plays III harmonic minor.

So A7 on Dbo7/Eo7 in the standard jam sesh key.

I mean it makes sense. The two chords are closely related.

You would use the same move on Corcovado, Inensatez etc.

It's also the origin of the Alone Together sub, which differs from the Stella by using a regular II-7 as part of the II-V (but really it's the usual 11th, perhaps the most common note on a II chord in the standards repertoire for various reasons, so could be either a natural 5 or b5 on that chord)

Abo7 G-7 C7 Fmaj7

(B-7) E7 G-7 C7 Fmaj7

[Tal_175]

Em7b5 A7 doesn’t go to Dm. Maybe a little more compelling is that it’s related by way of that diminished chord to (and often subbed out for) Gm7 C7.

ii V of iii doesn't have to go to iii it can work as deceptive cadence. The same substitution happens in I Remember You. There are of course other ways to see it like any other harmonic device.

[pamosmusic]

ii V of iii doesn't have to go to iii it can work as deceptive cadence. The same substitution happens in I Remember You. There are of course other ways to see it like any other harmonic device.

Sure but it started out as a not a ii V going to not iii so I dunno

[Christian Miller]

The dreaded non functioning II V!

Confusing classical musicians everywhere (eh? It’s not a II or a V?)

A development of - I want to say - the 50s jazz scene?

All these things are emergent from substitution practices on song sheet harmony which comes out of nineteenth century common practice. It’s why the Big Boys like to dig out the original sheet music innit.


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[pamosmusic]

t’s why the Big Boys like to dig out the original sheet music innit.

Doooooorks

also yes though

[Mick-7]

Well, the VII chord is a rootless V7 chord, so it's almost like asking what tunes use the V7 chord prominently - and almost like being in love.

[pamosmusic]

Well, the VII chord is a rootless V7 chord, so it's almost like asking what tunes use the V7 chord prominently - and almost like being in love.

VII7 chord

not vii chord

[Mick-7]

VII7 chord

not vii chord

Same species, it's a rootless V9 chord.

For example, do you ever use this voicing as V7 chord?

G9 & Bm7b5 | x-2-3-2-3-x |

[pamosmusic]

Same species, it's a rootless V9 chord.

For example, do you ever use this voicing as V7 chord?

G9 & Bm7b5 | x-2-3-2-3-x |

Mick we’re talking about a B7 or B triad going C.

Not a B diminished

[Mick-7]

Mick we’re talking about a B7 or B triad going C.

Not a B diminished

Oh, sorry, I only read the the end of this thread that referenced Stella by Starlight.

But maybe a suspended bV7 substitute for the V7 chord, is that too much of a stretch? Say Db9#5sus subbing for G7?

Which could be just a half step up resolution, like say, B7 to C.

[pamosmusic]

Oh, sorry, I only read the the end of this thread that referenced Stella by Starlight.

But maybe a suspended bV7 substitute for the V7 chord, is that too much of a stretch? Say Db9#5sus subbing for G7?

Which could be just a half step up resolution, like say, B7 to C.

Also upthread, it’s usually a beboppification of the common tone diminished chord.

C6 — Cdim(maj7) — C6

becomes

C6 — B7 — C6

[PMB]

I hear it as biiidim (C#dim7). Take the first 6 bars of rhythm changes with the biiidim7 passing chord in bar 3 that George Gershwin himself employed and 'drop in during the middle of the conversation':

Bb6 / G-7 / | C-7 / F7 / | D-7 / Dbdim7 / | C-7 / F7 / | F-7 / Bb7 / | Ebmaj7 / Ab7 / | Bb6 ...

[pingu]

I hear Charlie Parker as playing that first chord as an VII7 even though the orchestra is playing #IVo7 or bIIIo7? Which is to say he plays III harmonic minor.

So A7 on Dbo7/Eo7 in the standard jam sesh key.

I mean it makes sense. The two chords are closely related.

You would use the same move on Corcovado, Inensatez etc.

yes that was the sound I/we all were talking about on the other thread a couple of weeks ago
which got into dim functions

I do like that sound

[pamosmusic]

I hear it as biiidim (C#dim7). Take the first 6 bars of rhythm changes with the biiidim7 passing chord in bar 3 that George Gershwin himself employed and 'drop in during the middle of the conversation':

Bb6 / G-7 / | C-7 / F7 / | D-7 / Dbdim7 / | C-7 / F7 / | F-7 / Bb7 / | Ebmaj7 / Ab7 / | Bb6 ...

Yeah that makes sense. You’ve mentioned before that, in general, you fancy the biii diminshed a prettied up II7-ii7 move, I think.

[PMB]

Probably. I'm like a scratched record...

[PMB]

Just never noticed before that the whole opening to Stella is basically that portion of rhythm changes.

[pingu]

some of the tunes mentioned
notably
I remember you
Lover

Have the VII chord in question
preceded by its ii chord

which gives a VIIsus to VII sound

even playing Asus to A7 at the beginning of Stella works

[Christian Miller]

some of the tunes mentioned
notably
I remember you
Lover

Have the VII chord in question
preceded by its ii chord

which gives a VIIsus to VII sound

even playing Asus to A7 at the beginning of Stella works

That’s usually a sub

I remember you was originally Io7, as was whispering (which later formed the basis of Groovin’ high.)

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[djg]

alone together. Abo became Bm7 E7.

[pingu]

That’s usually a sub

I remember you was originally Io7, as was whispering (which later formed the basis of Groovin’ high.)

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Its interesting how harmony evolves

…. that Io7 in bar 2 of ‘I remember you’
sounds quite odd to me now

whereas Bbo at the start of Stella (in Bb) still sounds good to me ….