Tunes that use the VII as a major triad or dominant chord prominently.

[pamosmusic]

ii V of iii doesn't have to go to iii it can work as deceptive cadence. The same substitution happens in I Remember You. There are of course other ways to see it like any other harmonic device.

Sure but it started out as a not a ii V going to not iii so I dunno

[Christian Miller]

The dreaded non functioning II V!

Confusing classical musicians everywhere (eh? It’s not a II or a V?)

A development of - I want to say - the 50s jazz scene?

All these things are emergent from substitution practices on song sheet harmony which comes out of nineteenth century common practice. It’s why the Big Boys like to dig out the original sheet music innit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

t’s why the Big Boys like to dig out the original sheet music innit.

Doooooorks

also yes though

[Mick-7]

Well, the VII chord is a rootless V7 chord, so it's almost like asking what tunes use the V7 chord prominently - and almost like being in love.

[pamosmusic]

Well, the VII chord is a rootless V7 chord, so it's almost like asking what tunes use the V7 chord prominently - and almost like being in love.

VII7 chord

not vii chord

[Mick-7]

VII7 chord

not vii chord

Same species, it's a rootless V9 chord.

For example, do you ever use this voicing as V7 chord?

G9 & Bm7b5 | x-2-3-2-3-x |

[pamosmusic]

Same species, it's a rootless V9 chord.

For example, do you ever use this voicing as V7 chord?

G9 & Bm7b5 | x-2-3-2-3-x |

Mick we’re talking about a B7 or B triad going C.

Not a B diminished

[Mick-7]

Mick we’re talking about a B7 or B triad going C.

Not a B diminished

Oh, sorry, I only read the the end of this thread that referenced Stella by Starlight.

But maybe a suspended bV7 substitute for the V7 chord, is that too much of a stretch? Say Db9#5sus subbing for G7?

Which could be just a half step up resolution, like say, B7 to C.

[pamosmusic]

Oh, sorry, I only read the the end of this thread that referenced Stella by Starlight.

But maybe a suspended bV7 substitute for the V7 chord, is that too much of a stretch? Say Db9#5sus subbing for G7?

Which could be just a half step up resolution, like say, B7 to C.

Also upthread, it’s usually a beboppification of the common tone diminished chord.

C6 — Cdim(maj7) — C6

becomes

C6 — B7 — C6

[PMB]

I hear it as biiidim (C#dim7). Take the first 6 bars of rhythm changes with the biiidim7 passing chord in bar 3 that George Gershwin himself employed and 'drop in during the middle of the conversation':

Bb6 / G-7 / | C-7 / F7 / | D-7 / Dbdim7 / | C-7 / F7 / | F-7 / Bb7 / | Ebmaj7 / Ab7 / | Bb6 ...

[pingu]

I hear Charlie Parker as playing that first chord as an VII7 even though the orchestra is playing #IVo7 or bIIIo7? Which is to say he plays III harmonic minor.

So A7 on Dbo7/Eo7 in the standard jam sesh key.

I mean it makes sense. The two chords are closely related.

You would use the same move on Corcovado, Inensatez etc.

yes that was the sound I/we all were talking about on the other thread a couple of weeks ago
which got into dim functions

I do like that sound

[pamosmusic]

I hear it as biiidim (C#dim7). Take the first 6 bars of rhythm changes with the biiidim7 passing chord in bar 3 that George Gershwin himself employed and 'drop in during the middle of the conversation':

Bb6 / G-7 / | C-7 / F7 / | D-7 / Dbdim7 / | C-7 / F7 / | F-7 / Bb7 / | Ebmaj7 / Ab7 / | Bb6 ...

Yeah that makes sense. You’ve mentioned before that, in general, you fancy the biii diminshed a prettied up II7-ii7 move, I think.

[PMB]

Probably. I'm like a scratched record...

[PMB]

Just never noticed before that the whole opening to Stella is basically that portion of rhythm changes.

[pingu]

some of the tunes mentioned
notably
I remember you
Lover

Have the VII chord in question
preceded by its ii chord

which gives a VIIsus to VII sound

even playing Asus to A7 at the beginning of Stella works

[Christian Miller]

some of the tunes mentioned
notably
I remember you
Lover

Have the VII chord in question
preceded by its ii chord

which gives a VIIsus to VII sound

even playing Asus to A7 at the beginning of Stella works

That’s usually a sub

I remember you was originally Io7, as was whispering (which later formed the basis of Groovin’ high.)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[djg]

alone together. Abo became Bm7 E7.

[pingu]

That’s usually a sub

I remember you was originally Io7, as was whispering (which later formed the basis of Groovin’ high.)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Its interesting how harmony evolves

…. that Io7 in bar 2 of ‘I remember you’
sounds quite odd to me now

whereas Bbo at the start of Stella (in Bb) still sounds good to me ….

[pingu]

you can bring a man down to earth
but you can’t make him dig it ….

[Robermax]

So Nice - Bebel Gilberto

[PMB]

So Nice - Bebel Gilberto

Just running over it again for a gig tomorrow and had the same thought.

[Robermax]

Good for you- gig on a Monday!

[pcjazz]

Home (Where shadows fall) in Eb, goes to D7 in bar 2, then Fm in bar 3.

[garybaldy]

Home (Where shadows fall) in Eb, goes to D7 in bar 2, then Fm in bar 3.

See post #2!!

[pcjazz]

See post #2!!

Right you are. Great tune, fun changes.