Dexterity

[Christian Miller]

:-)

You're saying discrepancies don't matter. In fact, they're not really discrepancies at all. Absolutely.

Well not quite that, but variations are a fact of life when it comes to this stuff. It’s almost like an oral tradition.


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[joe2758]

oral tradition.

Aural tradition

[Christian Miller]

Aural tradition

Haha, yeah.

Usually one comes with the other

[Mick-7]

That's very good, well done.

Edit: Having listened closely to the above slowed down version, I think the music notation shown below is correct, including the Bb ghost note in red.

As I said before, the third note in the 3rd bar is a Bb (before the Eb), as is the second note in the 4th bar, the slowed down version confirms this. And the first chord in the 3rd bar is the tonic chord or it's IIIm sub, i.e., Bb(major) or Dm7 (> G7), not Bb7 (I7), so an Ab there would not be diatonic to the chords - just sayin'....

And Miles intonation is occasionally off, it's flat (I was gonna say "frequently" off but I'll be kind), so if you want to be too, play the Ab, etc.

[supersoul]

For anyone interested, I've been playing around with an audio stem remover and I just decided with the help of slow down and editing software to remove the horns for the head to 'Dexterity'. Here's the result:

That is really cool! After listening into these recordings for so long, it's amazing to hear it separated like that.
May I ask how you did it?

[PMB]

That is really cool! After listening into these recordings for so long, it's amazing to hear it separated like that.
May I ask how you did it?

I used Lalal.ai for the separation, Transcribe to slow the track down and Audacity to clean up any noise where the rests are placed. I imagine that if had the kind of high-level technology that Peter Jackson and Giles Martin used for recent Beatles projects, it would have been possible to separate the trumpet from the sax.

[PMB]

As I said before, the third note in the 3rd bar is a Bb (before the Eb), as is the second note in the 4th bar, the slowed down version confirms this. And the first chord in the 3rd bar is the tonic chord or it's IIIm sub, i.e., Bb(major) or Dm7 (> G7), not Bb7 (I7), so an Ab there would not be diatonic to the chords - just sayin'....

And Miles intonation is occasionally off, it's flat (I was gonna say "frequently" off but I'll be kind), so if you want to be too, play the Ab, etc.

With all due respect, Mick it's an Ab and C in bar 3. I've been transcribing for over 30 years, both for myself and professionally for guitar magazines and I heard an Ab when first lifting the head. It's confirmed by Chris Stewart's excellent transcription in 'Charlie Parker Omnibook 2' (the 'C' played by Miles is written with a small note head).

Just to be sure, I went back to Transcribe and slowed it down even further to 20%. The Ab and C are clear as day and selecting 'note guesses' from the drop down menu gave the same result.

Regarding the non-diatonic nature of the Ab, I think we often hear what we expect rather what's actually there in these situations. As with Sonny Rollins, Parker's lines can have a Schenker-like sense of voice-leading over longer time spans that sometimes negates what's happening at any point in the harmonic context. Thomas Owens gives a great example of voice-leading in his 'Bebop' book where a descending chromatic sits inside a long improvised phrase by Parker over the tune 'The Closer'. Perhaps a similar principle is operating here?

[ragman1]

Well not quite that, but variations are a fact of life when it comes to this stuff. It’s almost like an oral tradition.

That's why I'm saying they're not really discrepancies, more par for the course.

[PMB]

Btw, I forgot that YouTube has its own slow down function. Go to the wheel on the lower RH side of the clip I uploaded, select 0.25 from the Playback speed option and listen at 0.06".

[charlieparker]

With all due respect, Mick it's an Ab and C in bar 3. I've been transcribing for over 30 years, both for myself and professionally for guitar magazines and I heard an Ab when first lifting the head. It's confirmed by Chris Stewart's excellent transcription in 'Charlie Parker Omnibook 2' (the 'C' played by Miles is written with a small note head).

Just to be sure, I went back to Transcribe and slowed it down even further to 20%. The Ab and C are clear as day and selecting 'note guesses' from the drop down menu gave the same result.

Regarding the non-diatonic nature of the Ab, I think we often hear what we expect rather what's actually there in these situations. As with Sonny Rollins, Parker's lines can have a Schenker-like sense of voice-leading over longer time spans that sometimes negates what's happening at any point in the harmonic context. Thomas Owens gives a great example of voice-leading in his 'Bebop' book where a descending chromatic sits inside a long improvised phrase by Parker over the tune 'The Closer'. Perhaps a similar principle is operating here?

My analysis is what I stated before he is playing a b9 over the G7 chord an eighth note early as anticipation of the phrase

Ab Eb D B G

which is 5 of the notes of the C harmonic, the next chord.

[PMB]

My analysis is what I stated before he is playing a b9 over the G7 chord an eighth note early as anticipation of the phrase

Ab Eb D B G

which is 5 of the notes of the C harmonic, the next chord.

Yeah, I get that as well. This kind of thing happens all the time with Parker and strikes me as something like tectonic shifts (except we're talking jazz here not rock ).

[Mick-7]

With all due respect, Mick it's an Ab and C in bar 3. I've been transcribing for over 30 years, both for myself and professionally for guitar magazines and I heard an Ab when first lifting the head. It's confirmed by Chris Stewart's excellent transcription in 'Charlie Parker Omnibook 2' (the 'C' played by Miles is written with a small note head).

Ah, after listening more closely, I see (hear) you are correct! In my defense, the average of Ab + C = Bb.

But was it this recording you slowed down or another one?

[PMB]

Ah, after listening more closely, I see (hear) you are correct! In my defense, the average of Ab + C = Bb.

But was it this recording you slowed down or another one?

Defense accepted!

Both the master and the alternate takes have that same Ab in the sax and C in the trumpet. As mentioned earlier by charlieparker (forum poster not saxophonist!), Miles was most likely playing the part on the spot and the two takes were recorded closely together. He probably misheard Bird's line on the initial run through - it's hard to believe the split is intentional when just about everything else is in unison at the same pitch or octave apart from a few similar points in the bridge.

[GuyBoden]

This is what I can hear from the slowed down original 1947 recording I've created.

I'm not sure if the Bb in bar 4 is played. (See red in notation.)

Listen very closely to this very slowed down track of the original 1947 Parker recording.

Attachment 116425

Edit: Update notation above to include Ab in the third bar.

Many thanks, Ab then, I've updated my notation to include the one note change.

[charlieparker]

Not to jump ahead but bar 7 is a bit of a bear for me rhythmically.

[AllanAllen]

Not to jump ahead but bar 7 is a bit of a bear for me rhythmically.

I’m done with both A’s and yeah those triplets are tricky, but also super hip and they get easier with speed. It’s more of a feel thing than a counting thing.

[pamosmusic]

Shall we move on to measures 5-8?

[AllanAllen]

Shall we move on to measures 5-8?

5-8 gets you to 72% of the sheet finished.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah it’s Ab in the sax

I find it hard not to hear B lol

G7b9

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[GuyBoden]

Shall we move on to measures 5-8?

Maybe this notation.

Edit: Change Gb to F#.


I'm listening to this slowed down track:

[pamosmusic]

Maybe this notation.



I'm listening to this slowed down track:

I think that’s how I play it.

other than that EGREGIOUS Gb.

My god, guy, my god … F# please.

[AllanAllen]

I think that’s how I play it.

other than that EGREGIOUS Gb.

My god, guy, my god … F# please.

There’s no sharps in jazz.

[GuyBoden]

I think that’s how I play it.

other than that EGREGIOUS Gb.

My god, guy, my god … F# please.

I changed it to F#, it still sounds the same.

[ragman1]

I think that’s how I play it.

other than that EGREGIOUS Gb.

My god, guy, my god … F# please.

Why a sharp in a flat key?

(I know why, because of the G... but still.... In the bridge there are two F#'s but they're over a D7. But also - in bar 2 there's a Gb. Answer THAT if you can!)

[pamosmusic]

Why a sharp in a flat key?

(I know why, because of the G... but still.... In the bridge there are two F#'s but that's over a D7. But also - in bar 2 there's a Gb. Answer THAT if you can!)

Gladly. It’s basic copyist etiquette. The purpose of the notation isn’t to be harmonically correct, it’s to be easy to read. In general our brains are not logical when they’re doing something reflexive like sight reading. Instead they revert to patterns. For the F# in the bar leading to the G, putting it as F# makes the shape of the line visually clear. If the next note were F, it should be a Gb.

Also in general, we like to see different sounds on different lines. Practically speaking, if you keep going F F# F # then your brain has to interpret every bit of ink on the page rather than just seeing a pattern and going with it. You’re also constantly having to keep track of whether the rest of the Fs should be sharped or natural. And not to mention as an arranger, you’re wasting ink rewriting the “natural” sign, or courtesy accidentals in the following measures etc.

Notice there are no G naturals around the Gb, but lots of Fs. So making it an F# means they’d probably need a courtesy accidental later on.

Yes some of these guidelines conflict, so the goal is always neater and easier to interpret.

It’s not really a big deal in isolation, but if you’ve ever sat down and read a chart and been like “goddam this is weird to read” it’s almost certainly for this reason. In the past maybe beaming errors would’ve been in competition with weird accidentals, but most music notation programs auto correct beaming errors now. The accidentals are much more a judgement call and get sloppier.