16th notes

[pamosmusic]

Yes, 100% although I've come at it the other way.

- If I feel quarters at 280 say, I panic. Everything's boxed in.
- Half time it Hal Galper style - so 16ths at 140, the issue you identify. It sounds like 16th notes, on the beat.
- Developing a language of half time syncopated language - well I think that's the trick.

I think you do sort of need to learn to feel bop heads and transcribe solo lines so on in two. Dotted eighth notes. Claves, Charlestons, pushes, forks etc. None of this needs to be about the notes exactly.

Think (again Galper) NOLA second line - 2/4 with a swung 16th. Also straight. The difference is subtle.

But 140 is going to feel fast for that type of feel, so it's a bit weird.

Anyway it becomes about developing the rhythmic acuity. The upbeat of 1 (the 'a' in half time) is a typical 'suburban' weak spot. Playing a fork rhythm (1e a) or a series of e a's accurately is worth working at. It's no faster than playing quarters but will add a lot to your phrasing, and all the great bop firebrands used this a lot.

It's taken me a long while to get a sense of this stuff, but I'm happy with how it's developing.

The trade off is when I have that upbeat stuff dialled in (and I like the dotted eighth too) the fast 16th thing happens naturally, and it feels slower.

Yeah I'm with you there. I think eighths at the fast tempo is a musical issue for me. Cutting the time makes everything looser and helps me access the eighth notes and more interesting rhythms. The double time thing is more of a like a mental hangup or something. Like if I'm thinking about playing double time, then I'm just going to play sixteenths because that's what you do. So I have to do something to just shake myself out of that.

I don't know.

But yeah the Hal Galper thing was a huge one for me. I never put my metronome back on 2 and 4 after that.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I'm with you there. I think eighths at the fast tempo is a musical issue for me. Cutting the time makes everything looser and helps me access the eighth notes and more interesting rhythms. The double time thing is more of a like a mental hangup or something. Like if I'm thinking about playing double time, then I'm just going to play sixteenths because that's what you do. So I have to do something to just shake myself out of that.

I don't know.

But yeah the Hal Galper thing was a huge one for me. I never put my metronome back on 2 and 4 after that.

Why not? I never really saw the suggestion to half the tempo as having much to with the metronome.

I always felt that it was important to get used to feeling 1 and 3 in context…. So different metronome settings.

I mean you don’t have to have the hi hat on 1 and 3?

Just a thought. I put my click on 1 and 3 sometimes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

Why not? I never really saw the suggestion to half the tempo as having much to with the metronome.

I always felt that it was important to get used to feeling 1 and 3 in context…. So different metronome settings.

I mean you don’t have to have the hi hat on 1 and 3?

Just a thought. I put my click on 1 and 3 sometimes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It’s been a couple years so in the grand scheme, very plausibly just a phase. I also absolutely have students practice with 2 and 4, and also 1 and 3. So caveat with that.

But at the risk of reigniting the Berlin metronome thread, I generally just think of the metronome as a check against my tempo while I have to create the time myself. So I guess I appreciate that the 2 and 4 gives you the high hat, but emphasis should be in my playing whether the high hat is there or not.

So I do a bit of 1 and 3, a lot of just 1, and a good bit of just 2, 3, or 4.

I’ve also been playing against the claves in Drum Genius quite a bit.

I guess the reverse of that argument is that, if you should be able to emphasize time the way you want to whether or not the click on 2 and 4 is there, then you should be able to feel time in those big relaxed chunks even with the click on 2 and 4. So maybe I’m overdue to be back.

[MinToyTot]

I'd be interested to know if anyone here has any experience with karnatic rhythmic solfege. I have practiced it only at a very basic level so far but doing so has given me a taste for very slow metronome tempos (I think the fastest karnatic tempos are around 50BPM). My general guitar warmup has become playing every subdivision from whole notes up to 16ths at 20BPM or similar. Super fun!

[Strat-itis]

True uptempo is north of 280.

So med up is 270? No.

Not necessarily. You need to be able to groove. That doesn't mean you need to play every note of the subdivision.

Yes necessarily. It doesn't groove if you can't play 8th notes at the tempo and just shows you can't handle it. You don't have to be dominating technically with non stop 8th notes and triplets but you need some base of 8th notes or there's no point. It's not like using 16th notes where you can just throw them in a few times for energetic effect.

[pamosmusic]

Yes necessarily. It doesn't groove if you can't play 8th notes at the tempo and just shows you can't handle it. You don't have to be dominating technically with non stop 8th notes and triplets but you need some base of 8th notes or there's no point. It's not like using 16th notes where you can just throw them in a few times for energetic effect.

Not to point out the obvious here, Christian was not saying you don’t have to groove when you play eighth notes. He was saying you *do* have to groove when you play sixteenth notes. When you listen to the great double timers — Cannonball, say — that mess absolutely swiiiiiinnnnnngggggs.

So med up is 270? No.

Again not to point out the obvious, but of course 270 is quick and there’s no hard line. But I believe the takeaway from that is that 200 is not super quick at all. I think most guys probably would consider that 200-240 range to be sort of medium up. I don’t really have any line in my head but I just kind of counted in something I’d think of as being sort of mid up, nothing wild and it clicked at about 210.

[Strat-itis]

Not to point out the obvious here, Christian was not saying you don’t have to groove when you play eighth notes. He was saying you *do* have to groove when you play sixteenth notes. When you listen to the great double timers — Cannonball, say — that mess absolutely swiiiiiinnnnnngggggs.

Then I don't know what the both of you's point is. Everything obviously has to groove. My point was 16th notes at 100 and 8th notes at 200 are not equivalent. You don't have to hold down most of your solo with 16th notes, you can add them as you please for energetic effect. You can use them a lot, you can use them once or twice. You can't throw in 8th notes once or twice in a solo at a quick tempo. That doesn't groove, shows you can't handle it, and sounds inadequate. There must be some base of 8th notes, but no it doesn't have to be a continuous non-stop sheet of sound.

Again not to point out the obvious, but of course 270 is quick and there’s no hard line. But I believe the takeaway from that is that 200 is not super quick at all. I think most guys probably would consider that 200-240 range to be sort of medium up. I don’t really have any line in my head but I just kind of counted in something I’d think of as being sort of mid up, nothing wild and it clicked at about 210.

Agree. It's more like med up, mid up, then true up.

[Christian Miller]

So med up is 270? No.

Fair - med up is feel up to about 240ish. I sort of exaggerated. But there's a whole regime of fast above 280 which requires a different approach, in the same way as ones approach at 240 has to be different to 180. But there's 'in the cracks' tempos. My time tends/tended to be better at 240 than 220. Etc. So there's a need to put the metronome to funny settings.

Yes necessarily. It doesn't groove if you can't play 8th notes at the tempo and just shows you can't handle it. You don't have to be dominating technically with non stop 8th notes and triplets but you need some base of 8th notes or there's no point. It's not like using 16th notes where you can just throw them in a few times for energetic effect.

"Dominating technically?" If you mean you have to be technically on your game, yes you do. But this is true regardless of how many notes you play. I daresay we are talking about the same thing. I think of it as resolution like in a video image. How fine your pixels are, how much detail you can see. The better this is, the faster you can play, right? It's partly the physical output but a lot of it - more than people think - is perceptual resolution. One reason why transcribing and practicing at tempo as much as possible is important as well as slow.

Your 8th note upbeats have to be resolved both in your hearing/feeling and you have to have the technique to articulate them accurately. Because - if you don't you aren't playing the tempo. You are playing a straight half tempo.

That latter thing is a bit different to the requirement to play a constant stream of 8th notes at a given tempo. I could do that 10 years ago. What has changed with my playing and got me closer to the players I admire is that I play the tempo more and don't simply almagamate across the beat - although that is a necessary first step to playing faster tempos and double time, which is to say the same thing.

[Christian Miller]

Then I don't know what the both of you's point is. Everything obviously has to groove. My point was 16th notes at 100 and 8th notes at 200 are not equivalent.

An important step is learning to feel them as equivalent, or at least be able to transform from one to the other. You need to be able to feel the macro pulse at fast tempos, and the micro pulse at slow tempos.

There's other transformations as well (such as 6/8 in 4/4) but that's a basic one.

Everyone shreds on ballads haha, so if you can feel Cherokee at 280 as a ballad at 70, you can shred on that. Good first step.

And then you need to develop the resolution...

[BreckerFan]

I don't agree that 16ths at 100 and 8ths at 200 are equivalent. Playing the two well requires very different feel. I struggled with this for a while; I could play double time lines at pretty good tempos but struggled with up tempo tunes. Part of it was just being able to think and land lines at those tempos (in many cases the harmonic rhythm at uptempos is halved compared to double time equivalents), but when I listen to old recordings of myself the feel is definitely off as well.

Double time lines are very straight and on top of the beat. As much as swing rhythm evens out as the tempo increases, it's not *totally* even. It's still a little more relaxed and laid back comparitively. Over the past year or so I've made a conscious effort to work on uptempo time feel and it's improved *a lot*. I think you really have to work on the two separately.

[Christian Miller]

I don't agree that 16ths at 100 and 8ths at 200 are equivalent. Playing the two well requires very different feel. I struggled with this for a while; I could play double time lines at pretty good tempos but struggled with up tempo tunes. Part of it was just being able to think and land lines at those tempos (in many cases the harmonic rhythm at uptempos is halved compared to double time equivalents), but when I listen to old recordings of myself the feel is definitely off as well.

Double time lines are very straight and on top of the beat. As much as swing rhythm evens out as the tempo increases, it's not *totally* even. It's still a little more relaxed and laid back comparitively. Over the past year or so I've made a conscious effort to work on uptempo time feel and it's improved *a lot*. I think you really have to work on the two separately.

What I think I’m saying is that 16ths at 100 feels different from double time at 100, which feels the same as 8ths at 200 which you need to feel in half time so it is 100bpm

Confused? You will be haha

Double time lines- honestly I think you can swing them. Yes at fast tempos that type of tempo swing is more a sense of pocket than an inequality. So it’s a subtle distinction. But lagging everything is a little bit of a cheat. Somethings definitely need to be on the beat.

Your struggles with fast tempo was probably a purely perceptual issue. The faster you play the slower you count as Dizzy put it.

So the upshot is that tempos tend to feel relaxed to me now the issues are more to do with articulating the rhythms accurately. Ie playing the guitar stuff. Not necessarily speed, more accuracy and evenness.

The implied straight double time - what I think of as a the blue note thing is another thing again. But you can do that by playing straight 8ths against the beat and locking into the downbeat. Sort of anti swing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BreckerFan]

Yeah fair bad use of vocabulary on my part haha. Replace double time with 16ths.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah I think part of the utility of using one to practice the other is that they aren’t the same. You’ll be inclined to feel the two in different ways and can use that aspect of one to inform your practice of some of the weak spots of the other.

[Christian Miller]

The upshot is at any tempo, Accentuated notes need to be accurately placed. If that’s upbeats as it is for many long 8th phrases you lag because you are catching the swing upbeat and the linking material straightens out at that speed meaning you end up straight and late. This is a default for most professional level jazz guitar players when soloing on medium up swing tunes and it fits the instrument well and sounds good.

But if you play a Charleston say, the first note must be on the beat - not behind - and the second accurately on the swing and of 2. I think most of us would feel that intuitively as correct even if we didn’t think of it. Playing with a tight band live or on record will teach this basic rhythmic ABC of course. And it follows the accents need to be understood and nailed for more complex phrases.

One thing that marks out Benson for example is how accurately he does that stuff for more syncopated rhythms at fast tempos. This was a transferable skill as it turned out.

To my ears when playing faster tunes a lot of jazz players lock into the upbeat and play long strings of pocket eights and they sound great but there isn’t that much rhythmic activity going on at the eight note level. Rhythmic interest comes more from groupings and so on.

Playing more syncopated rhythms at fast tempos is a big goal for me that I’ve been working on for a while. Horn players and pianists have more of this, at least to my ears. The guitar is difficult to do this on tbf.

One result is these players end up sounding like they are playing slower than they are. That’s really interesting to me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christian Miller]

Jim Hall has a knack for doing this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

Jim Hall has a knack for doing this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah I always think of Clifford Brown. He can play at a medium tempo and you’ll get like seven different feels. A jazz swing, a hard shuffle, a true double time, a straight sort of tongue in cheek classical vibe. It’s cool. So much command of where the time is.

[Strat-itis]

Good info on this thread. Was going to refute Christian for straw manning me but thought better. :P

Got hozed trying to improv a good solo including 16th notes for Stella by starlight at 128. Gonna take a bluez, rhythm changes, and simpler tunes slower at like 90 or 100 to work on 16th note lines.

Milt double timing the double time on It don't mean a thing at 75bpm here at 13:50. Getting them 32nd notes going!

[PMB]

Yeah I always think of Clifford Brown. He can play at a medium tempo and you’ll get like seven different feels. A jazz swing, a hard shuffle, a true double time, a straight sort of tongue in cheek classical vibe. It’s cool. So much command of where the time is.

Clifford's two choruses on Sandu are a great demonstration of this with some beautifully phrased sixteenth notes in the first twelve bars.

It's an excellent short solo for guitarists to transcribe and learn (see below) and should be added to the current thread of memorable blues solos:

[Strat-itis]

^ The guitar in unison with the trumpet trig'd the f out of my senses for some reason ha!

[PMB]

^ The guitar in unison with the trumpet trig'd the f out of my senses for some reason ha!

That's why I posted both - to soften the blow.

[Strat-itis]

[Strat-itis]

Not me

[pamosmusic]

Not me

cool

Sounds like some of those vibes chops are coming together.

I think Bags Groove has a IV on m 2, yeah?

[Strat-itis]

Thx. Yes, there's a 4 on measure 2. I included it in the bass. The chords are occasionally misplaced on the vibes and piano because of my loose playing. I was prioritizing rhythm and musical approach for this quick recording. But I'm going to be shedding this tune and try to get the note syntax tighter in addition to the rhythms. In my Milt book it has the MJQ version of this song where he plays the rhythmically embellished head and a 16th note based solo. So I'm going to learn at least 1 chorus of the solo.

[Cal45m]

Totally feel this, unlocking 16th note fluency with clear contour is a whole new level of control. Something that helped me was practicing short 4–6 note rhythmic cells (with accents in different spots) across a scale, then chaining them into longer lines. Also, shedding 16th note bebop heads like “Segment” or checking out early Brecker stuff can really dial in that syntax. Triplets too, especially nested or over-the-barline ones, add so much forward motion. Keep digging.