16th notes

[Strat-itis]

Realizing that I'm a foo of foos and I can't play 16th note lines with syntax. Listening to Milt and realizing that he kind of does that so I have to get it together. Also no sleeping on triplet ideas. Not a specific question, but just if people have things to share about 16th note lines with contour or even just patterns. So basically 8th note fluency is essential, but so are triplets and 16th notes for full rhythmic energy.

[pamosmusic]

For any rhythm subdivision, some medium tempo continuous improv stuff can be good. I haven't spent much time doing the continuous eighth note thing, but a friend of mine (killer sax player) recommended just sitting down and playing a single subdivision for as many choruses as you can and doing that for a few weeks or something to get a subdivision really going.

So I've done that a lot with triplets and a good bit with sixteenth notes.

With double time stuff specifically, there will be real headwinds with the chops. So playing some two octave scale runs -- straight up and down, 123 234 345, 1234 2345, diatonic thirds, etc --, playing bebop scales or added note scales, and working a lot on simple chromatic embellishments has some real payoff.

Start tempos very very slow, play quiet and relaxed, play eighth notes, then played dotted eighth sixteenth, dotted sixteenth eighth, then try and hit the sixteenths. Only play the sixteenths once. Bump the tempo a tiny bit and do it again.

Accept that the tempo/chops consideration will be a long-term project. If you're double timing five or ten clicks faster at the end of the summer, that's good. And there are diminishing returns the faster you get.

Try keeping the metronome use sparse -- so have the click just on 1 and 3 or maybe just 1 if you can. Double time lines have to feel like they're floating the time, even if they aren't floating the time. If they're digging in hard to the beat, they'll feel overbearing and like they're dragging. And also will probably actually drag.

Find great sixteenth note lines and try to build your own lines that use the same tools and follow the same shape. I think different subdivisions and different rhythms lend themselves to different shaped lines, so steal good ones and try to make your own variations.

[pamosmusic]

I can't help you with the foo of foos bit. You'll need to deal with that on your own.

[Strat-itis]

Thx for the write up. I must have coincidently milled most of these suggestions before.

For any rhythm subdivision, some medium tempo continuous improv stuff can be good.

Was thinking this. How I should probably start around 100. A recording I'm working on is at 128 and a little on the zippier side for learning 16th note lines.

I haven't spent much time doing the continuous eighth note thing, but a friend of mine (killer sax player) recommended just sitting down and playing a single subdivision for as many choruses as you can and doing that for a few weeks or something to get a subdivision really going.

Yes, I absolutely think that's the ticket, to isolate the rhythms to build fluency in. 8ths are fine. 16ths and triplets need work.

Try keeping the metronome use sparse -- so have the click just on 1 and 3 or maybe just 1 if you can. Double time lines have to feel like they're floating the time, even if they aren't floating the time. If they're digging in hard to the beat, they'll feel overbearing and like they're dragging. And also will probably actually drag.

Yep. I've noticed that too. Milt's 16ths glide along, but they also have subtle lil articulation even tho they're straight. Don't want em to sound labored.

Find great sixteenth note lines and try to build your own lines that use the same tools and follow the same shape. I think different subdivisions and different rhythms lend themselves to different shaped lines, so steal good ones and try to make your own variations.

I've definitely noticed that. Milt doesn't play triplet lines as much, they sound more pattern-ish, but still not completely formulaic.

[equenda]

Hi!
Playing melodic lines in sixteenth-notes is not easy.
I think the basis is being able to play well with eighths ("steady stream of eight-notes" as Howard Levy says) at fast tempos.
In practice it doesn't take much to "find yourself in troubles" . In fact, playing at 100 bpm in sixteenths is equivalent to playing at 200 bpm with eighths.....and if you go to 110bpm.....it means playing in eighths at 220bpm.
The last chapter of my book "Melodic Improvisation for Jazz Guitar: Practical Examples and Studies Based on Tension and Resolution" is dedicated precisely to sixteenth-notes lines. This video shows what is explained and transcribed in the book:

Ettore

[Strat-itis]

Hi! Playing melodic lines in sixteenth-notes is not easy. The last chapter of my book "Melodic Improvisation for Jazz Guitar: Practical Examples and Studies Based on Tension and Resolution" is dedicated precisely to sixteenth-notes lines. This video shows what is explained and transcribed in the book:

Ettore

Thx for the video

I think the basis is being able to play well with eighths ("steady stream of eight-notes" as Howard Levy says) at fast tempos.

I agree. You can mess around with runs to introduce 16th notes, but ultimately the good players can phrase with 16th notes just as they would with 8th notes.

In practice it doesn't take much to "find yourself in troubles" .

Yep lol

[pamosmusic]

I would be inclined to agree that kicking it off at 100 bpm is pretty doggone fast.

[Strat-itis]

Yeah I could take it even slower to practice. The tune I'm working up for OS is at 128. We'll see if I can hack it. I could always redo my keys part and just switch the midi bass to 95.

[Mick-7]

Playing melodic lines in sixteenth-notes is not easy. I think the basis is being able to play well with eighths ("steady stream of eight-notes" as Howard Levy says) at fast tempos. In practice it doesn't take much to "find yourself in troubles" . In fact, playing at 100 bpm in sixteenths is equivalent to playing at 200 bpm with eighths.....and if you go to 110bpm.....it means playing in eighths at 220bpm.

It requires a change in picking technique on the guitar, Stratitis has a different challenge.

[GuyBoden]

Playing 16th notes is way, way beyond my abilities, so how is it accomplished?

Very, very slow pre-Learnt patterns?

Or alternatively.

Very, very slow pre-Learned patterns?

[docsteve]

You need to be able to hear them first. If you don’t know what they are supposed to sound like, you won’t be able to play them. It took me some time before I could hear them, too.

16ths at 100 bpm is already quite fast but over a funk groove, it sounds quite natural so I suggest starting with a slow funk groove.


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[pamosmusic]

16ths at 100 bpm is already quite fast but over a funk groove, it sounds quite natural so I suggest starting with a slow funk groove.

This is interesting. Maybe try playing eighth notes at cranked tempos ... 280 or something past your usual ceiling. Being able to feel space and syncopations at that tempo might translate well into being able to feel space and syncopations at the double time tempo. Which is something that's technically easier to do than straight sixteenths, but musically pretty hard.

[docsteve]

Too? I can't hear them? Where did I say that? Maybe I should be talking down to you if you think 16ths at 100 is hard but I think 100 is easy and 130 or 140 is more the start of the hard zone. :P

I was answering to GuyBoden‘s post. Sorry for the confusion.


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[Strat-itis]

Haha ok thx

[pamosmusic]

Haha ok thx

I don’t know man. Sixteenths at 100 actually is hard. Start slower.

[Strat-itis]

Yep. I'll be working a range of tempos from slow and comfortable, to more zippy.

Jimmy Smith's 16th note, 16th note triplet, and 32nd note shred-off at 130 bpm lol!!

[equenda]

I don’t know man. Sixteenths at 100 actually is hard. Start slower.

Thank you for saying that. Above 100bpm (sixteenths) or 200bpm (eighths) I have a hard time playing.

Ettore

[Christian Miller]

Rushing has always been my issue. I set my click to the fourth 16th of beats 1 and 3 (or the and of 4 for up swing.)

[pamosmusic]

Rushing has always been my issue. I set my click to the fourth 16th of beats 2 and 4 (or the and of 4 for up swing.)

Psychopath

[Christian Miller]

Psychopath

Undoubtedly. I'm not sure why I started doing it TBH, there was a reason... I think I just wasn't happy with my upbeat placement.

But with the click on the upbeat, the challenge becomes to play downbeats and keep the click on the upbeat - which was hell at first.

It has helped though I think.

I do think I've noticed an improvement in my pocket - and I do seem to have morphed into Mr Double Time on gigs, which may not be a good thing haha.

[Strat-itis]

Thank you for saying that. Above 100bpm (sixteenths) or 200bpm (eighths) I have a hard time playing.

True up tempos aren't my thing. I just stick to med up around 160 or 180. The difference between 16th notes at 100 and 8th notes at 200 is that you're expected to carry the groove with 8th notes or it's a cop out. You're not expected to carry the groove continually with 16th notes, you just throw them in several times for energy.

[Christian Miller]

True uptempo is north of 280

But I think the problem of fast tempos in jazz is more one of rhythmic acuity and clarity of articulation. You don't need to be Al Di Meola or whatever.

[Christian Miller]

True up tempos aren't my thing. I just stick to med up around 160 or 180. The difference between 16th notes at 100 and 8th notes at 200 is that you're expected to carry the groove with 8th notes or it's a cop out. You're not expected to carry the groove continually with 16th notes, you just throw them in several times for energy.

Not necessarily. You need to be able to groove. That doesn't mean you need to play every note of the subdivision.

Anyway I did a video about this

[pamosmusic]

Not necessarily. You need to be able to groove. That doesn't mean you need to play every note of the subdivision.

Anyway I did a video about this

This is why I liked that suggestion about the funk vibe. I suggested just playing eighths at 280 or something because we're much more inclined to use rest and syncopation and stuff rather than just blast off a bunch of eighth notes. When we're playing sixteenths at 140, we don't hear those syncopations as well.

Clifford Brown is one I love for this sort of thing, where he won't just rattle off a sixteenth note line (though he does that too), but he'll actually just like really play for a few measures in a double time. Sort of double time as real feel, as opposed to double time as temporary effect.

[Christian Miller]

Yes, 100% although I've come at it the other way.

- If I feel quarters at 280 say, I panic. Everything's boxed in.
- Half time it Hal Galper style - so 16ths at 140, the issue you identify. It sounds like 16th notes, on the beat.
- Developing a language of half time syncopated language - well I think that's the trick.

I think you do sort of need to learn to feel bop heads and transcribe solo lines so on in two. Dotted eighth notes. Claves, Charlestons, pushes, forks etc. None of this needs to be about the notes exactly.

Think (again Galper) NOLA second line - 2/4 with a swung 16th. Also straight. The difference is subtle.

But 140 is going to feel fast for that type of feel, so it's a bit weird.

Anyway it becomes about developing the rhythmic acuity. The upbeat of 1 (the 'a' in half time) is a typical 'suburban' weak spot. Playing a fork rhythm (1e a) or a series of e a's accurately is worth working at. It's no faster than playing quarters but will add a lot to your phrasing, and all the great bop firebrands used this a lot.

It's taken me a long while to get a sense of this stuff, but I'm happy with how it's developing.

The trade off is when I have that upbeat stuff dialled in (and I like the dotted eighth too) the fast 16th thing happens naturally, and it feels slower.