-
This question is more for those of you who regularly record yourselves with a digital audio workstation like Logic Pro (or anyone with decent audio engineering knowledge).
When looking at grid in the DAW, what is the margin of error when it comes to the micro-timing of one's playing?
I first started recording myself some months ago, and I saw that I was constantly 30-40 milliseconds ahead. Since then, I've learnt to relax a little and now I'm anywhere from on the beat to 30 milliseconds behind the beat. (My notes are a bit more even now, thanks to the metronome too.)
Is there like a specific number that screams, "You're playing sloppily! Fix your time now!"? What has your experience been?
-
05-31-2025 07:20 PM
-
In my experience, trying to get more accurate, only 2 things happen
1: nail it with the metronome and get the feeling of sparks when hitting it
2: nail it with the feel whatever it is.... just that it has to be completely in sync with the base woomp woomp.
2nd is better. More useful.
Btw. When chasing it, you'll get super sensitive. Dunno if it is good or bad. Just that it is there. Gonna be a worry for a while.
-
You were 30-40 milliseconds ahead regardless of tempo?
-
Back in the late 1980s, Electronic Musician magazine had a couple of articles by Michael Stewart on the "feel factor" and the question of how to humanize electronic music. His thoughts about this question of rushing, dragging, etc. are encapsulated in this chart:
FWIW, at least by Stewart's reckoning, 30-40ms ahead is in the "nervous" range of playing "on top" of the beat, while up to 20-30ms "behind" appears to be "dragging."
Initially an LA session guitarist, Stewart produced over 20 albums (including Billy Joel's "Piano Man") and he helped design the Human Clock, a MIDI clocking device, for Kahler.
-
Ok this is depressing.
-
One thing that's helped me lock in my time is playing to a quantized bass line. Because live bands and backing tracks are often imprecise with their rhythmic placement. Then it makes it harder for you to be precise. Quantized (midi) bass is EXACTLY in the center of the beat, so when you play to it a lot you get used to where the center of the beat is and you develop better command.
-
Originally Posted by emanresu
Originally Posted by Tal_175
When I chased the metronome or tried really hard to be on the the beat, that's when I became 30-40ms ahead. When I relaxed, I was more in time. Dunno why. Recently a drummer told me that I'm starting to drag a little. I'm worried that I've swung the other way and relaxed too much. Seems like I don't know how to play on the beat accurately, reliably, or consistently. Originally Posted by JazzPadd
-
In 4/4 at 120bpm 30ms is like 1/16. Sounds like a lot to be off-beat ... Is this about rythm patterns or melodic lines ?
-
Lines Originally Posted by teeps
-
Captain Obvious would like to point out that the answer to this question is entirely dependent on the tempo of the tune being played.
-
I have a feeling that the math is off. At 120 bpm, a quarter note is half a second or 500 ms. A quarter of that would be 125 ms, not 30. You‘d have to do ~480 bpm for 16ths to be 30 ms long and I doubt that anyone can do this Originally Posted by teeps
Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
-
I doubt it’s a very scientific chart.
Musicians perceptions can also be at variance with the objective reality. But it gives an idea.
These days with DAWs it’s possible to be a lot more objective about this stuff, but groove remains an art. I think aiming to play in time as accurately as possible is a good thing to aim for, and seeing if you can map your internal feeling to where you put it on the click.
A slightly upsetting thing - you can get good at playing accurately with a click and also drag with real musicians because you are not being responsible for your own internal clock but leaning on the click, and live, the drummer. You might want to try halving or quartering the tempo of the click (and playing at the same tempo) and synchronising to various subdivisions.
Also drummers feel things differently. And Shane Theriot gives an interesting perspective here
These things can be highly subjective
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
I asked ChatGPT this question a while a go : ok. lets use that list. do you have the data to put the deviation in milliseconds after each player? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Gavin Harrison ~2-5 ms ? Steve Gadd ~5-8 ms ? Vinnie Colaiuta ~2-4 ms ? Jojo Mayer ~2-5 ms ? ...It was longer.Dennis Chambers ~4-7 ms ?
I kinda thought that Chambers would win.. Anyway, it is so far from science, of course. Just curious.
-
I’d mistrust what Chat GPT says about a highly specific area of music? It’s likely to hallucinate. Originally Posted by emanresu
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
I've done some experiments with this. My conclusions are consistent with the diagram in post #4.
Had an excellent drummer record remotely over a drumless track. Samba groove. There was a click available, but the drummer was new to the DAW and didn't turn it on.
What he recorded seemed to be exactly 50 ms ahead of the click. Such a round number made us think about DAW error in lining up the start of the track. I sent the completed track to the drummer and asked if this was what he intended. His response was to record a new version with the kind of time he'd play for a TV commercial. Right on the click (which he'd figured out by then) and sounded lifeless.
So, one of the things we did was slide the waveforms around until we got the best feeling track. Result: the bass was best right on the click. The drums were best around 15ms ahead (might have been 13 or 17, now I can't recall). Piano and guitar varied, which is either an interesting result, bad playing or a reflection of a poorly designed experiment. And, it might be a matter of opinion, although it wasn't hard to get a consensus.
Bass on the click, drums a little ahead. That was the take-away.
BTW, sound travels about 1.13 feet per ms.
So, say the drummer hits the snare drum. The bassist, 15 feet away, hears it about 14ms later and immediately plays his note. The drummer hears that bass note about 28ms after his snare hit. You can feel 14ms, but you can probably hear 28ms.
What happens then gets complicated. I guess everybody tries to adjust and find a common pocket. Indoors, there is may be significant amount of reflected sound, which is even more delayed.
-
Yes 1/16 of a quarter note Originally Posted by docsteve
I have a feeling that the math is off. At 120 bpm, a quarter note is half a second or 500 ms. A quarter of that would be 125 ms, not 30. You‘d have to do ~480 bpm for 16ths to be 30 ms long and I doubt that anyone can do this
Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
.
Thanks for correcting.
-
Ongoing study:
-
But all the feel of the music is in the rushing/dragging, depending on the context. For me that's half of the pleasure of listening to a good band play, the way they groove with each other. That's also the reason i can't listen to many contemporary genres of music like pop, rock, metal etc today, cause this is gone and it sounds like software programmed music.
Playing can also be too tight to sound good, say if you are playing jazz funk but the band sounds like Tower of Power, then you need some looseness in the playing to get the right feel.
So i think the metronome and the click is only one part of the equation, it helps you develop an internal sense of time etc. But then you have to develop the right kind of groove for each style of music, and this needs listening to and playing along with the right kind of players, live or recorded.
-
As a player, the only things that make sense to me in this thread are the Shane Theriot video and Alter's post. Concepts like margin of error and moving stuff around on the grid a few milliseconds are not where it's at IMHO
-
I record myself regularly in Logic, but it never occured to me to look at the grid and analyze the playing like that. I trust the old 'if it feels good it is good' and just go by that.
But apparently some producers look at the grid to judge the performance? I remember Cory Wong was talking about how modern funk is about right on the grid, even came up with the song The Grid Generation.
I always called it metronomic feel. I prefer it over 'slightly behind the beat' feel, don't know why, maybe because I grew up on rock music more tha anything. That NEw Orleans relaxed groove Shane Theriot was talking about is kinda alien to my DNA.
-
This is why all truly grooving music is played with a click using in ears Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
(This is a joke btw.)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Yes. They are of course idiots, but the world is sadly run by idiots. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
So you better learn to play on grid boyo!
I have heard some funny stories, one is the Brazilian percussionist who was instructed to iron out all the feel as the waveforms weren’t lining up. (This guy is a beast btw.)
I like Vulfpeck live at Madison Square Gardens when they speed up in a percussion solo and Joe Dart pointedly slams on the brakes.I remember Cory Wong was talking about how modern funk is about right on the grid, even came up with the song The Grid Generation.
The ability to groove on click is a different sensibility to playing live in the old school way.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
No, it's quantized pop music. :P Originally Posted by Christian Miller
-
My favourite type of music. Originally Posted by Strat-itis
When Katy went to space I was like … OMG
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
One player I know records himself to a click at full speed and then critiques his performance by playing it back at a dead slow tempo. He recommends this as an effective way to work on your time.
I'd imagine that it's an effective way to improve your ability to play on a click. I suppose that's got some value.
But, if your goal is to improve your groove, and you assimilate this lesson perfectly, it seems to me that you are pursuing mechanical sounding time.
I found the research about milliseconds this way or that to be fascinating. Not necessarily helpful, but fascinating nonetheless.
But, I came to it because of a drum track that I suspect was recorded with a 50ms leader (by mistake), without a click (that is, he recorded to a track that was made to a click, but the drummer didn't hear the click when he played along to it) -- so the waveform needed to be repositioned. This is not the way I would design a scientific experiment, but it was the best we could do under the circumstances. Result, as I mentioned, bass on the click, drums slightly ahead (around 15ms). Drums on the click sounded lifeless.
The advice I've gotten from my teachers is to play along with tracks that have good groove. I'd advise playing with players who have great groove, if you can arrange that. And, my impression is that you have to feel it -- you can't get there by counting or scheming.
Mimi Fox is a player with extraordinary time feel. I think she'd be an absolutely spectacular bassist if she chose to play bass. You can hear it, of course, in her guitar playing. She attributes it to the fact that drumset was her first instrument. I've heard that from somebody else with great groove, can't recall who. Chicken and egg. Drawn to drums because they already had groove?
Reply With Quote
Desmond/Bickert video
Today, 02:25 PM in The Players