How many milliseconds off the beat is rushing/dragging?

[pcjazz]

IIRC Bucky consistently played rhythm slightly ahead of the beat, said it was needed to pull the band along.

[Christian Miller]

IIRC Bucky consistently played rhythm slightly ahead of the beat, said it was needed to pull the band along.

Good policy for old school big band rhythm


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[teeps]

The pocket and all that is discussed some in the bass world as well.

It is not that much about the numbers, more about the feel and function.

[pauln]

Ok this is depressing.

The more you look the worse it gets, but there's good news*. Start with the scenario in which all the instruments are going directly into the machine - no mic'ed speakers, electronic drum kit, everyone using in-ear monitors... and everyone instructed to "bury the click". In order to place dead on the click, you can't wait to hear it, you have to anticipate it and initiate your physical execution of the sound in advance.

So there is already the sense of primary difference in timing of execution vs perceived resulting sound. One listens to shift execution timing in order to adjust and hear the preferred sound timing. That shift in execution also includes mitigating the additional delay between execution and sound due to the physical transfer of energy from the musician taking time to "load" the instrument (the attack phase of the ASDR profile).

Further, this loading is differential for frequency range and mechanics, e.g., the loading for the snare is fast, the toms are slower, the bass drum is even slower... the drummer has to compensate for the different loading rate of the parts of his kit in order to globally "bury the click". Lesser but same principle for guitarists; the high pitches load faster.

A horn section may talk coherently among themselves about timing, but a bass player and a drummer may be in different worlds for initiation of execution vs resulting timing of the sounds.

*The good news is that if you just "synch" your up beat notes with the drummer, all the rest of your notes just need to be within your beat width control range and you will sound good.

[sgcim]

I posted on how MuseScore is much more accurate than a metronome to find out where in relation to the beat your playing is. You simply notate the rhythm and try to play along with it. The faster you set the tempo, the more sobering it is.

[Alter]

My approach has been, practice difficult stuff. Practice some funk guitar, do a few lessons with a drummer working on polyrhythms and really spend time playing rhythm. And always play with some time reference, metronome, drum genius, CD.

I've had recordings where they straightened instruments by grid and everybody was wondering why the groove was gone. Or live gigs in bigger stages where they spread the instruments without proper monitoring and we couldn't play (cause at 3 msec delay per meter you can't really groove if further apart than 2-3 meters without monitors).

I like Vulfpeck a lot, especially Nate Smith the great drummer. But this metronomic grid style is not really my cup of tea, I much prefer 70s funk bands and they way they sounded and grooved.

[Hep To The Jive]

I like Vulfpeck a lot, especially Nate Smith the great drummer. But this metronomic grid style is not really my cup of tea, I much prefer 70s funk bands and they way they sounded and grooved.

70's like what? examples? I really like the orginal funk, James Brown in the 60's. Sex Machine, I Feel Good, those recordings. In what category do they fall in, on or not really on the grid? I think it influenced a lot of heavy funky groove rock in the 90's too. In my mind the 70's was when funk became more mellow, in general. But not sure if others see it this way.

I'm a fan of Cory Wong, but not so much of Vulfpeck.

[Hep To The Jive]

This is why all truly grooving music is played with a click using in ears

(This is a joke btw.)


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Not a always a joke when in the studio. There many benefits to that.

And btw I will say a controvercial thing but some classic live hard bop recordings of the past I wish they used metronome, the speeding up is insane, ruins it for me.

[Christian Miller]

Not a always a joke when in the studio. There many benefits to that.

And btw I will say a controvercial thing but some classic live hard bop recordings of the past I wish they used metronome, the speeding up is insane, ruins it for me.

Art Blakey should have used in ears is that what you are saying?


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[djg]

Art Blakey should have used in ears is that what you are saying?

haha

[Donnd]

I apologize if this was already mentioned.

When recording into a DAW there is latency that delays what you hear from the prerecorded track you are trying to sync to. The latency can be minimized a number of ways but having a slow computer, minimal RAM and running plugins simultaneously makes the delay even longer. There is a lot of info on the web about how to manage buffer size and how to monitor what you hear as you lay down the guitar track.

[Hep To The Jive]

Art Blakey should have used in ears is that what you are saying?


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I was thinking Max Roach. I know he was a bebop drummer but this recording is 1955 I filed as hard bop. Could be wrong. I bought the album because it was highly praised by critics and I was looking to find something in this style and get inspired.

[pamosmusic]

I was thinking Max Roach. I know he was a bebop drummer but this recording is 1955 I filed as hard bop. Could be wrong. I bought the album because it was highly praised by critics and I was looking to find something in this style and get inspired.

Imagine finding something inspiring in Clifford Brown and Max Roach.

[Hep To The Jive]

Imagine finding something inspiring in Clifford Brown and Max Roach.

The speeding up doesn't bother you? I mean it's not just pushing the beat or slightly rushing, it's a lot!

[rpjazzguitar]

No, they're separate aspects of time. Holding the tempo well, and having good precision with the placement of your rhythms are separate from also using flexibility for expression. That's what makes good playing sound commanded, they're doing all these things at once. Not having lame tempo and precision, and then just going for expressive flexibility. So you do want to unilaterally work on locking down the 'metronomic' time of tempo and precision. Just work on flexibility sometimes also.

What bothers me about it probably has to do with a certain lack of obsessiveness on my part. That said, say I play along to a track and I'm perfectly in the pocket, grooving like mad (not that that's a given). Next, I slow it way down and identify all the places I'm not on the click. Am I supposed to consider the discrepancies to be errors?

Alternatively, I approach it as an exercise to nail the click, irrespective of the musicality. Doesn't sound appealing, but I can see there might be some value in it. When I've done recording projects I find that, if I can play the passage well, I don't have any problem staying on the click. If I'm struggling to play the line, time is the first thing to suffer.

[supersoul]

Am I supposed to consider the discrepancies to be errors?

If it sounds good than the discrepancies aren't wrong, they're beautiful

[MinToyTot]

Do you practice frequently with a metronome? In my opinion, the "inner clock" can't really train itself without that external reference point. If you do use a metronome, I would then ask if you have made specific efforts to practice/improve your rhythmic accuracy. I personally worked for a while under the assumption that "time feel" would come naturally with playing experience. I was wrong! Everything takes effort.

[GuyBoden]

Not as frequently as I should. Only recently started playing to the click in the DAW and recording my guitar about 3 months ago. Previously, I played along with recordings to get the feel of players.

Now, that I'm putting everything under the microscope so to speak, I can see where my tendencies to rush/drag are.

I use circular picking, and my upstrokes used to be super unstable. They rushed, and all subsequent downstrokes and upstrokes of a line get played a lot earlier. It's a challenge using this picking technique because it requires good thumb-joint mobility. I've only picked up this technique in February last year.

Circular picking employs economy/sweep picking while changing strings, and this is also a place I tend to rush because I get a bit too excited.

So far, these 2 problems have created the greatest unevenness in my playing which ultimately pushed me way ahead of the beat. I spent a few months correcting them, but I might over-corrected.

Now, it's just so difficult to find the beat and play within a ±10ms margin.

Many years ago 15+, I drove myself mad using a DAW. I found that latency always recorded my guitar behind the beat. But, I soon realised all had to do was move the whole line inline with the drums.

Latency is worth investigating and eliminating.

[Hep To The Jive]

Not as frequently as I should. Only recently started playing to the click in the DAW and recording my guitar about 3 months ago. Previously, I played along with recordings to get the feel of players.

Now, that I'm putting everything under the microscope so to speak, I can see where my tendencies to rush/drag are.

I use circular picking, and my upstrokes used to be super unstable. They rushed, and all subsequent downstrokes and upstrokes of a line get played a lot earlier. It's a challenge using this picking technique because it requires good thumb-joint mobility. I've only picked up this technique in February last year.

Circular picking employs economy/sweep picking while changing strings, and this is also a place I tend to rush because I get a bit too excited.

So far, these 2 problems have created the greatest unevenness in my playing which ultimately pushed me way ahead of the beat. I spent a few months correcting them, but I might over-corrected.

Now, it's just so difficult to find the beat and play within a ±10ms margin.

This is a bit bizarre, it shouldn't take that much effort to feel comfortable with metronome. That technique you picked up a year ago, why did you change from whatever you 've been doing before? It might be the culprit that affects your timing, it does sound like a weird technique.. The 'circular picking' is not a natural way to pick, unless you've been doing it from the start I imagine. Maybe consider a different technique that feels more comfortable for you, and see if your timing has improved?

[deacon Mark]

Do you actually think about his stuff as precise? I would say Wes was way behind the beat but it never occured to me to measure since it all worked out. Kessel seems to be a bit on top of it and at times drives me nuts with that way he can play.

So it is scientific? I am lost.

[Christian Miller]

Scientific research on the subject exists but having read the papers I would say it's a small literature, based on small data sets, and mostly done in particle physicist's lunchbreaks.

Somehow without scientific research jazz musicians have been killing it for over a century.

[Hep To The Jive]

Do you actually think about his stuff as precise? I would say Wes was way behind the beat but it never occured to me to measure since it all worked out. Kessel seems to be a bit on top of it and at times drives me nuts with that way he can play.

So it is scientific? I am lost.

Wes was behind the beat? i thought the opposite, tbh. Where are the scientists when you need them?

[Christian Miller]

Wes was behind the beat? i thought the opposite, tbh. Where are the scientists when you need them?

I'm not sure we should encourage them to measure art.

[deacon Mark]

Wes was behind the beat? i thought the opposite, tbh. Where are the scientists when you need them?

Yes, he did many times but obviously that changes from depending on the tune and such. Just listen to him play Besame Mucho in 3/4 time. He is way behind the beat and I guess that is where my ear hears his great sense of swing. Listen to West Coast Blues again behind the beat most of the time.

[Mick-7]

I'm not sure we should encourage them to measure art.

Alas, too late, they've sicked AI on it.