Don Cherry on Lennie Tristano

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

No lives matter;

All notes matter;

I never fully understood why Ice MFin' T would play cops in TV series.

When you really challenge the system (and that is not a matter of colour of skin) you end up in political asylum in Moscow or in solitary confinement in Her Majesty's prison.

Here is an interview a friend of mine did a few years ago.

[jameslovestal]

I'm not blaming the musicians for society, that's backwards, they were born into the same problematic society as everyone else.

When you said "Did they invite black musicians over to jam." I thought you meant at their gigs, but now I don't think that's what you meant.

I guess in your haste, you didn't see that I also posted "I mean outside of who could be in their bands, what clubs they could play in and other aspects of employment". "Their gigs" would relate to their employment. "over to a jam" would not.

[Mick-7]

[jameslovestal]

It is very interesting to listen to interviews with white musicians who were touring the South of the USA in the forties and fifties with their mixed bands. Most were accepting the facts, e.g. their band members sleeping in hotels or privately "on the other side of the railway track", very few insisted in equal treatment and refused to play otherwise.

Clearly those white musicians you're referring too were not part of the solution, but should they be lumped together with the part of the problem whites? Insisting on equality would have caused these mixed bands economic harm. 99% of these whites didn't have the economic clout of, say a Sinatra, as it relates to Sammy Davis Jr.

Note that this is a common theme in T.V. shows of the 50s and 60s (not related to jazz musicians, but just whites dealing with blacks, and in westerns, Mexicans and Native Americans): E.g. the non-racist white store owner tells the non-white seeking goods, he can't sell to him since the whites in town will burn down his store. Store owner feels like crap and is sincere, but his family is his first priority.

[AllanAllen]

I guess in your haste, you didn't see that I also posted "I mean outside of who could be in their bands, what clubs they could play in and other aspects of employment". "Their gigs" would relate to their employment. "over to a jam" would not.

So anyway, now that my reading comprehension skills have been fully displayed.

I think a lot of the guys were cool, and some of them were not.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Clearly those white musicians you're referring too were not part of the solution, but should they be lumped together with the part of the problem whites? Insisting on equality would have caused these mixed bands economic harm. 99% of these whites didn't have the economic clout of, say a Sinatra, as it relates to Sammy Davis Jr.

Note that this is a common theme in T.V. shows of the 50s and 60s (not related to jazz musicians, but just whites dealing with blacks, and in westerns, Mexicans and Native Americans): E.g. the non-racist white store owner tells the non-white seeking goods, he can't sell to him since the whites in town will burn down his store. Store owner feels like crap and is sincere, but his family is his first priority.

I think it is a question of courage and priority. The musicians I am talking about had a certain popularity otherwise I would not have read / listened to / watched interviews with them. And none of them took their families with them on tour which is different from the store owner you are talking about. BTW Do you know the story of Mike Longo and Cannonball Adderley?

[jameslovestal]

I think it is a question of courage and priority. The musicians I am talking about had a certain popularity otherwise I would not have read / listened to / watched interviews with them. And none of them took their families with them on tour which is different from the store owner you are talking about. BTW Do you know the story of Mike Longo and Cannonball Adderley?

I agree that it is a question of courage and priority. E.g. Courage to lost some of their popularity. Courage to lose income because they lose gigs. Note that I mentioned their families not in the scene they would be physically harmed but instead lose income and back them men were mostly the sole provider.

Anyhow, I believe we should be careful viewing those that lacked such courage too harshly. I've forgiven those that didn't come to my family's aid. Being Japanese, I had relatives put into camps, and when released losing their homes, land etc...

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I agree that it is a question of courage and priority. E.g. Courage to lost some of their popularity. Courage to lose income because they lose gigs. Note that I mentioned their families not in the scene they would be physically harmed but instead lose income and back them men were mostly the sole provider.

Anyhow, I believe we should be careful viewing those that lacked such courage too harshly. I've forgiven those that didn't come to my family's aid. Being Japanese, I had relatives put into camps, and when released losing their homes, land etc...

I have thought about that question a lot. It is easy nowadays to judge the people living under the criminal dictatorship in my country several decades ago (allies of the criminal regime in Japan then which was the reason why your family members being treated bad in the US). In my family I have my mother's stepfather on one side and on the other my father's uncle or his aunt, who was honored as a Righteous among the Nations together with her sister in Yad Vashem, and a lot of different positions in between. But I do not know on which side I would have landed if I had lived then.

BTW: You speaking about forgiving reminds me of an interview the friend I mentioned above did with a former IDF soldier.

[Litterick]

New England Public Radio: 'Scores of musicians made the trek to Tristano’s home in Hollis, Queens, over the years to study with him and attend the music school he established in 1951, among them Bud Freeman, Bob Wilber, Phil Woods, and Dave Liebman. The teen-aged Woods used to take the bus from Springfield for Saturday afternoon lessons with Tristano, and on one of these sojourns met Bird for the first time and shared a slice of cherry pie with him. Parker and Kenny Clarke visited Lennie in ’51, and with “Klook” deploying brushes on a telephone book, they recorded these private takes of “All of Me” and “I Can’t Believe That You’re in Love With Me.”'

[Litterick]

So anyway, now that my reading comprehension skills have been fully displayed.

I think a lot of the guys were cool, and some of them were not.

I doubt any white American jazz musician who shunned black company in the 1950s and 1960s would find any work. Jazz was a social medium. A musician's career depended on contacts and recommendations. Excluding most of one's peers would be disastrous. Besides, why would a white racist want to play in a genre that was mostly black?

[pamosmusic]

Of course that is white privilege in a nutshell. But are you blaming the majority of white jazz musicians of the era for that? E.g. that white guy shouldn't waltz right into Harlem since a black guy could do the same?

I think maybe in your haste you forgot that we’re not talking about “blame.”

The question was about Tristano and whether his view of “environment” might be a little myopic. Because whether or not white jazz musicians were kind people isn’t really the point.

Its interesting that in your earlier post you asked:

I wonder how segregated the majority of white jazz musicians were off-the-books? (by off-the-book I mean outside of who could be in their bands, what clubs they could play in and other aspects of employment). E.g. did they go to black jazz clubs to see black jazz musicians play? Did they invite black musicians over for jam sessions?

So you’re asking how segregated they are “outside of their bands” etc, and then giving as examples, a bunch of other musical situation.

Better question: were they living in the same neighborhoods? Were they experiencing authority the same way? Did they move with equal freedom through society?

Those are bigger and more important questions, and you don’t have to wonder about the answers either.

And that has nothing to do with who’s “to blame.” In discussions about this type of thing “blame” is generally a red herring.

[pamosmusic]

Besides, why would a white racist want to play in a genre that was mostly black?

Ahem … because they dispute it’s essential “blackness.”

and now we’re back.

[pamosmusic]

I doubt any white American jazz musician who shunned black company in the 1950s and 1960s would find any work. Jazz was a social medium. A musician's career depended on contacts and recommendations. Excluding most of one's peers would be disastrous. Besides, why would a white racist want to play in a genre that was mostly black?

And also … one might say the same thing about all those white blues musicians.

Except radio loved a white blues musician who could sell black blues music.

Theres also a reason we have such bizarre stratifications as “blue eyed soul.”

I too would like to think that white musicians who performed black music wouldn’t do well if they rejected the black pioneers of the music.

Unfortunately abundant evidence shows us otherwise.

[jameslovestal]

I think maybe in your haste you forgot that we’re not talking about “blame.”

The question was about Tristano and whether his view of “environment” might be a little myopic. Because whether or not white jazz musicians were kind people isn’t really the point.

Its interesting that in your earlier post you asked:



So you’re asking how segregated they are “outside of their bands” etc, and then giving as examples, a bunch of other musical situation.

Better question: were they living in the same neighborhoods? Were they experiencing authority the same way? Did they move with equal freedom through society?

Those are bigger and more important questions, and you don’t have to wonder about the answers either.

And that has nothing to do with who’s “to blame.” In discussions about this type of thing “blame” is generally a red herring.

You claim to speak for everyone else. You don't.

I had a good discussion with Bob Head that was informative.

[pamosmusic]

You claim to speak for everyone else. You don't.

what?

[AllanAllen]

I doubt any white American jazz musician who shunned black company in the 1950s and 1960s would find any work. Jazz was a social medium. A musician's career depended on contacts and recommendations. Excluding most of one's peers would be disastrous. Besides, why would a white racist want to play in a genre that was mostly black?

It literally started with THE FIRST jazz recording. The Original Dixieland Jazz Band’s leader claimed he invented the style of jazz and it had no blackness.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

New England Public Radio: 'Scores of musicians made the trek to Tristano’s home in Hollis, Queens, over the years to study with him and attend the music school he established in 1951, among them Bud Freeman, Bob Wilber, Phil Woods, and Dave Liebman. The teen-aged Woods used to take the bus from Springfield for Saturday afternoon lessons with Tristano, and on one of these sojourns met Bird for the first time and shared a slice of cherry pie with him. Parker and Kenny Clarke visited Lennie in ’51, and with “Klook” deploying brushes on a telephone book, they recorded these private takes of “All of Me” and “I Can’t Believe That You’re in Love With Me.”'

AFAIK Clarke played with brushes on a phone book.

[Litterick]

Ahem … because they dispute it’s essential “blackness.”

and now we’re back.

Ahem? Because you have invented their motives, you are back to where you want to be.

In any case, the origins of jazz are as much Creole as anything else.

[Litterick]

It literally started with THE FIRST jazz recording. The Original Dixieland Jazz Band’s leader claimed he invented the style of jazz and it had no blackness.

Original sin? Does one man speaks for all the white jazz musicians who followed him?

Besides, their music was Sicilian ragtime. We would not recognise it as jazz.

[Litterick]

And also … one might say the same thing about all those white blues musicians.

Except radio loved a white blues musician who could sell black blues music.

Theres also a reason we have such bizarre stratifications as “blue eyed soul.”

I too would like to think that white musicians who performed black music wouldn’t do well if they rejected the black pioneers of the music.

Unfortunately abundant evidence shows us otherwise.

But we are talking about jazz, not that there is anything wrong with blue-eyed soul.

[pamosmusic]

But we are talking about jazz, not that there is anything wrong with blue-eyed soul.

The name doesn’t denote anything about the genre, but the appearance of its performers.

So there’s that wrong with it.

[Litterick]

The name doesn’t denote anything about the genre, but the appearance of its performers.

So there’s that wrong with it.

Black-eyed peas are not peas, but a type of bean; and they do not have eyes.

[pamosmusic]

Black-eyed peas are not peas, but a type of bean; and they do not have eyes.

Youre absurd.

[Litterick]

Youre absurd.

Thank you. That means a lot to me.

[Christian Miller]

Black-eyed peas are not peas, but a type of bean; and they do not have eyes.

This post robbed me of my remaining IQ point


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