Don Cherry on Lennie Tristano

[pamosmusic]

This post robbed me of my remaining IQ point


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I usually put mine in a jar on top of the refrigerator for safe keeping, before I log on.

[Mick-7]

Black-eyed peas are not peas, but a type of bean; and they do not have eyes.

Or a Rap group, in which case they do have eyes, perhaps set in a face in a jar by the door, next to a jar of peanuts, which are in fact not nuts but legumes, like black-eyed peas.

[Christian Miller]

I usually put mine in a jar on top of the refrigerator for safe keeping, before I log on.

How do you remember where you put it, though?


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[pamosmusic]

How do you remember where you put it, though?


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Put what?

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

How do you remember where you put it, though?


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That's where artificial intelligence comes into play helpfully.

[Christian Miller]

That's where artificial intelligence comes into play helpfully.

You’d think, but it keeps lying to me.


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[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

You’d think, but it keeps lying to me.


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That's because you trained it with itself. Intellectual incest.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Have you ever read the book?
Read the book, and you can find out for yourself

The book arrived yesterday. I had totally forgotten about it when I received a call from the store. Now I am looking forward to having vacation the week after next week and having time to read it.

[Bobby Timmons]

It ain't easy being a minority yo.

[raylinds]

During the years when jazz was at the height of popularity was a time of very unfortunate racial attitudes and social mores. That so much wonderful music was made by black and white musicians playing together was a miracle. While there were exceptions I think the shared passion for the music led to more racial tolerance in the jazz world than in society as a whole.

I would rather focus on the music.

[pamosmusic]

I would rather focus on the music.

And I suppose we're lucky enough to be able to make that choice.

[DawgBone]

Forum member Pamos recommended the book Black Music by Leroi Jones, which I have been enjoying. Reading his interview with Don Cherry I came across this jarring bit on improvisation guru Lennie Tristano.

Attachment 112496

Is this the same "black music" book I enjoyed so thoroughly when the author ripped newer jazzers for not knowing blues and also absolutely trashed the Meters? I hate Cissy strut to the same degree as bro country. If this is the book, I have read it and it is excellent.

[raylinds]

And I suppose we're lucky enough to be able to make that choice.

Anybody could make that choice.

[pamosmusic]

Anybody could make that choice.

Except probably the musicians in question, one would imagine.

[AllanAllen]

Is this the same "black music" book I enjoyed so thoroughly when the author ripped newer jazzers for not knowing blues and also absolutely trashed the Meters? I hate Cissy strut to the same degree as bro country. If this is the book, I have read it and it is excellent.

That might have been Ralph Ellison's Living With Music. Black Music is very in favor of modern and free jazz.

[raylinds]

Except probably the musicians in question, one would imagine.

You realize that we are talking about events that happened decades ago, right? Why are you wasting moral outrage at something that a musician may or may not have said decades ago that may or may not have been taken out of context.

I find plenty of things going on presently that bother me- why would I want to waste my time on this? I like to think of jazz music as an oasis from the injustices of the world and something that can be shared by music lovers of any color nationality or creed. Yes, it makes me angry to think about the fact that Miles Davis was beaten by a white cop outside a club, but it is not what I like to think about when listening to his wonderful music, but I also don't think it should be forgotten.

Now I'll move on as I quite frankly find your moral indignation tiresome.

[AllanAllen]

Dude, you're the one being morally indignant. The reality is racism exists, and that generations of people are affected by it. If this is uncomfortable for you to accept, try and think about why that is. I'm not attacking you, it's helpful to reflect on difficult things.

[pamosmusic]

lol … don’t think I’m being outraged or indignant. I just like to know about the history of the music and don’t find it an impediment to my enjoyment of that music.

Thats kind of the opposite of outrage. But alrighty.

[Bobby Timmons]

I kind of agree with raylinds. Why waste time on that? I'd rather think of all the positivity in jazz.

Although those were very bad times. Incredible that such injustices happened to people. It is part of jazz history. And racism or the impact of racism does still exist today.

I'm discriminated because of who I am and it's not fun.

[AllanAllen]

Why would you come to a thread about jazz and race to say ignore the race.

[charlieparker]

I kind if agree with @raylinds, too.

It's clear that Jazz was invented and most of its pioneers were African American. The music was born in their culture.

I think it's pretty clear that guys like Tristano and Konitz looked up to the founders of the music.

And, yes, they had way more privileges than their contemporary black musicians but I imagine making a living even as a white musician back then wasn't terribly easy, either.

From what I can gather, the disagreements were mostly musical in nature. Tristano and his school took the music in a different direction with maybe a more European/White sensibility as Dizzy described it.

Tristano's choice of words were unfortunate in the downbeat article, but I can't help feel that some are judging him by a harsh standard.

[GuyBoden]

The early Tristano school players seemed to be doing a different Jazz thing, but with respect to the originators.

[pamosmusic]

We’ve kind of hashed all this out earlier in the thread.

But an additional thought:

People who think we shouldn’t be paying attention to the role of race in the history of the music usually present that as an alternative to an unseemly obsession with race, or “moral outrage,” or “tiresome moral indignation.” In reality, though, they’re not a counterpoint at all. They’re essentially a mirror image of the attitude with which they’re frustrated.

People who think “focusing on race” distracts from the music should ask themselves why they’re distracted. If they don’t think it’s salient anymore, then why aren’t they able to think about it and enjoy the artistic product at the same time?

For the sake of argument, let’s say Tristano had some problematic racial politics (and I’m not saying he did for this purpose). Would that make his music less listenable?

I don’t think so. Ive listen to the Tristano school plenty and enjoyed it. We get to draw our own lines. If you’re drawing a line on the side of ignoring it so you can enjoy the music, then you might ask yourself if why that is, or if you’re all that different from the people you find obnoxious.

[pamosmusic]

From here on I’ll just reiterate that my position on all these discussions is that, you can expend your energy wherever you like, but knowing the history of a thing can only mean knowing that thing better.

[charlieparker]

We’ve kind of hashed all this out earlier in the thread.

But an additional thought:

People who think we shouldn’t be paying attention to the role of race in the history of the music usually present that as an alternative to an unseemly obsession with race, or “moral outrage,” or “tiresome moral indignation.” In reality, though, they’re not a counterpoint at all. They’re essentially a mirror image of the attitude with which they’re frustrated.

People who think “focusing on race” distracts from the music should ask themselves why they’re distracted. If they don’t think it’s salient anymore, then why aren’t they able to think about it and enjoy the artistic product at the same time?

For the sake of argument, let’s say Tristano had some problematic racial politics (and I’m not saying he did for this purpose). Would that make his music less listenable?

I don’t think so. Ive listen to the Tristano school plenty and enjoyed it. We get to draw our own lines. If you’re drawing a line on the side of ignoring it so you can enjoy the music, then you might ask yourself if why that is, or if you’re all that different from the people you find obnoxious.

Let me try and refine what I said earlier. I think you are correct that race is important here. Bud Powell never recovered from a beating he received at the hands of the police, for example, just to mention one of numerous injustices black musicians endure/d.

Just in Tristano's case, it's ambiguous enough that isn't clear to me what to make of the various statements here. I think it's definitely fair to call out his statements in Downbeat as at best myopic and insensitive as you described. But I'm not sure what else to make of it.