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  1. #101

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    It's not the total story, but I find it impressive that Metheny has won 20 Grammy awards across several categories and has distinguished himself in numerous, diverse contexts ranging from solo, duo, trio, ensemble, as well as doing some highly experimental and let's face it, commercially risky projects. At the same time, I find his album We Live Here is one I can give to almost any of my friends and they will love it. They love not because it's exactly like everything else they enjoy, but because it builds on what they can enjoy and takes them other places. "We Live Here," "To the End of the World," "Girls Next Door" are just really engaging, listenable tunes that also mess with your head and build into your sensibility an enjoyment of new sounds and ideas.

    So while actually I don't mind Kenny G's playing at all, I do think he and Pat Metheny are in utterly different leagues. Metheny occupies a different universe of talent, vision, technical ability, compositional prowess, and versatility that I simply can't see in Kenny G, nor can I see that it might even be beneath the surface.

    I was slow getting "on board" with Pat Metheny. But I find every year something else he's done that I didn't "get" before suddenly becomes compelling for me. He makes me grow, and I like that.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov View Post
    You totally miss the point of why you make such a post. Despite the slightly backwards approach the reason is this:

    It is to get inspired. It is to let others point out stuff you've might have missed. It is basically a hail mary attempt to actually getting your eyes and ears opened and discover something new.

    It is curiosity .. What am I missing that so many others cherish??


    And why the backward approach of stating that you don't like him .. Well you give context and also open the door for other that at first also didn't like him to be specific about why they changed their minds. But mostly it is context.

    All his other stuff feels so corny to me. Like the smooth jazz you hear in the mall/the weather channel or that new agey stuff. Especially his synth guitar.

    Also, as a person Pat Metheny seems quite pretentious. Of course what Kenny G did is not cool. But as I said, I think his music sounds almost as corny as Kenny G's stuff.

    Will the jazz police arrest me? Am I tone deaf? Am I not smart/deep enough? Will I get the banhammer?

    I think the OP misses your point, as well
    It all works out in the end; if it's not working out, it's not the end.

  4. #103

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    I'm confused...is this satire?

    Like Metheny or not, that's fine. Arguing that he's not a genius level musician just makes you look like you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

    I think it's 100% fine for anyone who wants to understand music to dislike the music of anyone they like. Large parts of classical music I don't really like much at all. But arguing that an accomplished, trendsetting musician who works with all the best players is lacking in skills is pretty stupid.

    Kenny G is generally distasteful and did a distasteful thing that was pretty obvious. Getting called out on it seems pretty appropriate.

    Not all of Pat Metheny's music is my taste all the time but there's zero point in arguing that he's not a fantastically skilled musician. +bright sized life on its own is a superlative album with JACO.



    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Hey - a talented guy good Guitarist not a raw emotion Guitarist .... great Composer ...great Pop Guitarist..

    Not a heavyweight badass like Benson or etc...

    Like many Jazz Guitarists - he has a layer of hipness filter that dilutes raw emotion through his instrument TBH which although I appreciate Metheny's frankness about other Guitarists and Jazz Musicians but I wondered why he was so rough on Kenny G .

    I first heard both of them on the smooth jazz Radio stations - and some of Metheny's stuff is definitely in that category and Kenny G can Play and has circular breathing

    They both seem to be the same ilk or Genre ...I know Pat has embraced the Jazz Repertoire much more than Kenny G.

    And I doubt seriously that Pat could outplay Kenny G ...regardless of material.

    However - IF Pat is down on Kenny G because Kenny G could be a great Sax Player in addition to his Pop stuff - and the Jazzers just want to hear Kenny G challenge himself sometimes-

    That's different . I apologize - I get it .

    I am Pop / R&B but have benefited from being exposed to Jazz ( mostly here ) and tutored to an extent ( mostly here ) and Jazz does challenge IMO and is strong medicine lol.

    Do you Guys think Metheny could seriously challenge Kenny G on some Jazz Tunes ?

  5. #104

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    Smooth jazz this ain't:


  6. #105

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    I’d rather not listen to Berlioz if that’s ok

  7. #106

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    I think Chris Potter's soloing is closer to Coltrane than to Berlioz, but that's just me.

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Hey - a talented guy good Guitarist not a raw emotion Guitarist .... great Composer ...great Pop Guitarist..

    Not a heavyweight badass like Benson or etc...

    Like many Jazz Guitarists - he has a layer of hipness filter that dilutes raw emotion through his instrument TBH which although I appreciate Metheny's frankness about other Guitarists and Jazz Musicians but I wondered why he was so rough on Kenny G .

    I first heard both of them on the smooth jazz Radio stations - and some of Metheny's stuff is definitely in that category and Kenny G can Play and has circular breathing

    They both seem to be the same ilk or Genre ...I know Pat has embraced the Jazz Repertoire much more than Kenny G.

    And I doubt seriously that Pat could outplay Kenny G ...regardless of material.

    However - IF Pat is down on Kenny G because Kenny G could be a great Sax Player in addition to his Pop stuff - and the Jazzers just want to hear Kenny G challenge himself sometimes-

    That's different . I apologize - I get it .

    I am Pop / R&B but have benefited from being exposed to Jazz ( mostly here ) and tutored to an extent ( mostly here ) and Jazz does challenge IMO and is strong medicine lol.

    Do you Guys think Metheny could seriously challenge Kenny G on some Jazz Tunes ?

    answering your question ..
    I don't care.. honestly. I don's how Kenny G can play, I don't care about what Pat said about him and how right or wrong he was and especially I do not care about circular breathing.

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbernstein91 View Post
    I think Chris Potter's soloing is closer to Coltrane than to Berlioz, but that's just me.
    Wait till you hear him on ophicleide

  10. #109

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    Oh - that reminds me:


  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Hey - a talented guy good Guitarist not a raw emotion Guitarist .... great Composer ...great Pop Guitarist..


    Do you Guys think Metheny could seriously challenge Kenny G on some Jazz Tunes ?
    Yes, pretty sure.
    Last edited by rictroll; 09-17-2019 at 09:47 PM.

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Hey - a talented guy good Guitarist not a raw emotion Guitarist .... great Composer ...great Pop Guitarist..

    Not a heavyweight badass like Benson or etc...

    And I doubt seriously that Pat could outplay Kenny G ...regardless of material.
    I'm not PM's biggest fan but I have to disagree with you here. I've seen him play live and have heard many recorded solos from the guy. His style is different, but just try to play Bright Size Life with the fire and accuracy that he did. His unique slidy vibrato thing ain't easy either. Most players wouldn't bother to master it, it has become part of his signature.

    When I heard him play live he did a Guitar/Drum duet where he burned his ass off, kind of like McLaughlin likes to do with his super baddie drummers. Pat used hammer-ons and pull-offs where John would use pick strokes, but he did/does it masterfully and with great fire and zeal. He knows exactly what he's doing and can really go when he wants to! He was super fast, liked greased lighting. I'd never heard him play like that before, and was surprised.

    And regarding an "improv play off" with Kenny G... well, people tend to be better at what they do, as opposed to not do. If one spends his life playing jazz changes and the other doesn't, why would we think that the latter would fare as well, or even better?

    Such a presumption seems baseless.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbernstein91 View Post
    I think Chris Potter's soloing is closer to Coltrane than to Berlioz, but that's just me.
    Most folks don’t know that Berlioz did NOT die of a drug overdose in France in the 1890’s. Instead, he went into hiding, shedded on alto, then moved to Kansas City, where he got the first alto position in Jay McShann’s band, next to... you guessed it, Charlie Parker, who then proceeded to steal all of Berlioz’s licks and invented Bebop shortly thereafter.

    Parker is also said to have stolen most of Kenny G’s licks, (who is actually 97 years old, but well preserved) leaving him with no option but to then invent smooth jazz, along with relieving audiences of the burden of listening to troublesome and confusing chord changes, as well as insomnia.

    And that, as Paul Harvey used to say, is the rest of the story..... Good Day!
    It all works out in the end; if it's not working out, it's not the end.

  14. #113

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    Pat and a lot of other people are down on Kenny G for having had the presumptuousness to overdub himself on Louis Armstrong's classic "What A Wonderful World". In this interview, Pat refers to the track as "musical necrophilia."

    As for whether Kenny can play jazz for real, yes, he can, and it has nothing to do with circular breathing. Listen to any of the early Jeff Lorber Fusion releases for Kenny Gorelick's great sax playing before he adopted the Musak-ified musical persona of "Kenny G." Despite Pat's scathing critique, I really like Kenny Gorelick's playing on the early Lorber Fusion stuff; it's soulful and hip. The Kenny G discs I can do without.

    Here are some of my favorite early Lorber tunes, in no particular order.

    There's no sax solo on Spur of the Moment, but the vid shows album credits with KG's real name, plus he co-wrote this song with Lorber and Danny Wilson:


    Kenny's kinda Coltrane-esque solo starts at 3:25:


    Kenny's solo at 1:35 - melodic, nice phrasing, a different vibe than what's in the previous tune; i.e. he plays to fit the song. Which is why I can't fathom how he went from stuff like this to pablum like Songbird... I guess money talks.


    Sax solo starts at 3:27 - not too flashy, not dull either, fits the laid-back vibe of the tune.


    Kenny's nice flute solo starts at 2:39.
    Last edited by starjasmine; 09-18-2019 at 01:13 AM.

  15. #114

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    Not meaning to hijack the thread, but here's a really entertaining discussion about the whole "Pat vs. Kenny" dustup...

    Did Kenny G respond to Pat Metheny? - Straight Dope Message Board

  16. #115

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    Between Kenny and Pat, I know for sure who I would rather play like, whose musicianship I would rather possess.

    But I can't quite make up my mind about which head of hair I would rather have (if it's some sort of package deal).

  17. #116

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    Just curious, a few here seem to have mentioned the "G" word in referring to Pat.
    No, not Kenny G., but "genius"
    I kinda like to reserve that term in jazz circles for cats like Duke, Bird, Monk, Miles, y'know, the innovative giants. I wouldn't even put Wes on that list and I adore his playing. Wes was a phenomenal player, maybe the greatest jazz guitarist and hugely influential but that doesn't necessarily tick the genius box for me. To me he was a brilliant linstrumentalist.
    As I mentioned, not a fan of PM, but can certainly appreciate his musicianship, you'd have to he blind, well, at least deaf not to recognize that.
    Not hearing the genius, just imo, carry on.....

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon View Post
    Just curious, a few here seem to have mentioned the "G" word in referring to Pat.
    No, not Kenny G., but "genius"
    I kinda like to reserve that term in jazz circles for cats like Duke, Bird, Monk, Miles, y'know, the innovative giants. I wouldn't even put Wes on that list and I adore his playing. Wes was a phenomenal player, maybe the greatest jazz guitarist and hugely influential but that doesn't necessarily tick the genius box for me. To me he was a brilliant linstrumentalist.
    As I mentioned, not a fan of PM, but can certainly appreciate his musicianship, you'd have to he blind, well, at least deaf not to recognize that.
    Not hearing the genius, just imo, carry on.....
    I use the word 'genius' very specifically - for me genius is a particular kind of gift when the person does mostly things that are culturally outside general contex... there is some kind of irrational logics in the overall scope of their art/their aesthetics. THey can be seemingly within the conventional frame but the choices they make within this frame seem very unpredictable and spontanwous but at the same tome internally they seem to me the best choice possible (Mozart for example but not Beethoven).
    I can name a few as an example - those that I would call genius: Chopin (but not Schumann - though I prefer him definitely - so genius does not necessarily means that his music is interesting from point of view of its contents), Schubert, Debussy, Wagner... in jazz Bird, Trane, Duke, Bill Evans, Monk... Miles to me was more genius as personality in musica --- arranger of musical life maybe... he had fantastic sense of form, musical stream, musical integrity and leadership... he was genius.
    I think Django had sparkle of genius but not Wes or Jim Hall - again it does not make them lower from my point of view - maybe even quite the opposite.. - they were great human gifts for me...

    In general people seem to drop word 'genius' too often... as well as 'great' - everyone seems to be great.

    They often use 'genius' as an equivelent os 'something I like very very much'

  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Oh - that reminds me:

    Thing is this still sounds better to me than Metheny’s trumpet synth tone.

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    I'm not PM's biggest fan but I have to disagree with you here. I've seen him play live and have heard many recorded solos from the guy. His style is different, but just try to play Bright Size Life with the fire and accuracy that he did. His unique slidy vibrato thing ain't easy either. Most players wouldn't bother to master it, it has become part of his signature.

    When I heard him play live he did a Guitar/Drum duet where he burned his ass off, kind of like McLaughlin likes to do with his super baddie drummers. Pat used hammer-ons and pull-offs where John would use pick strokes, but he did/does it masterfully and with great fire and zeal. He knows exactly what he's doing and can really go when he wants to! He was super fast, liked greased lighting. I'd never heard him play like that before, and was surprised.

    And regarding an "improv play off" with Kenny G... well, people tend to be better at what they do, as opposed to not do. If one spends his life playing jazz changes and the other doesn't, why would we think that the latter would fare as well, or even better?

    Such a presumption seems baseless.
    I remember hearing one of these probably Coltrane inspired duets live and being blown away. I’d happily listen to gig of that. But presumably moat listeners would prefer Imaginary Day.

    Kenny CAN play (I am reliably informed) - but the idea of him putting some serious fuck you jazz of that kind into one of his live shows is entirely risible.

    Pat has always sought to bridge the jazz world with a wider listenership and seems to have done so without compromise to his musical expression. The fact I’m not a huge fan of this material doesn’t alter that.

    Kenny on the other hand does his thing.

  21. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara View Post
    He can explain what it is he is trying to achieve with music very clearly whereas many musicians don't fare so well in interviews.
    I think this is not indicator of music quality and surely not indicator of art. This means PM is an intelligent man, who exactly knows his goals, and communicates according. I think it is not explainable why Bill Evans was so great, also Miles (50s, 60s). But the best in end: there is no need of explanation, even better just listen. (when trying to learn and analyze a solo that is an other thing.).
    Last edited by Gabor; 09-18-2019 at 06:07 AM.

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaco View Post
    What is really accomplished by trashing other musicians? Shouldn't we be supporting each other? Pat trashed Larry Corryell's CD where Larry overdubbed playing with Wes who he worshipped. Larry thought he was paying homage to a hero and was deeply hurt by Pat's remarks. Metheny has a reputation for this sort of thing. I think it's shameful.
    Just for the facts: PM was not so harsh.

    It is far from trashing It is actually more than dozen extremely admiring sentence on LC, and only one very polite, conditional thought about what we should not do in general. I am not into PM, but I really think the shame on LC and not on PM this case. Maybe I am hypersensitive to this, but making one himself/herself on the spotlight (and optionally making money) on other's achievements, values, death or tragedy is definitely a no do. The whole world can remember and admire Wes legacy even in daily basis by listening Wes recordings. No one can think he/her playing over Wes is necessary for this. The overdubbing thing is particularly sensitive, because overdubbed artist has no chance to agree or disagree...

    Here is PMs opinion on LC from PMs official web site:
    (Pat Metheny : Question & Answer)

    "hi mark,

    thanks for writing in. larry will always, ALWAYS remain an early favorite for me - his playing with gary burton in the 60's revolutionized everything, and in particular the way he played on the record "gary burton quartet live in concert" from carnegie hall which contains some of the most creative and important jazz guitar playing of all time.

    so, yes, i was shocked and disappointed when i heard that it was larry (when i heard it on the radio i didn't even recognize it as him) that had made that version of wes's "bumpin on sunset" - which actually happens to be one of my favorite wes tracks ever so i was extra bugged by it.

    but whatever, i know larry is just trying to do good things with music, maybe a producer thought it was a good idea or something - but we are in an era that just because we CAN do some things technologically speaking that maybe we couldn't before - it doesn't mean that it is really a good idea to go ahead and do them. i've made a few goofs in this area of implementing new technology and in the excitement of it found that it wasn't a great solution to a musical problem myself over the years, quite honestly.

    i have not really heard larry that much over the past years, but i know that wertico plays with him once a year or so and always comes back saying how much he enjoys it. there is no doubt in my mind that larry is playing fantastic and i would love to hear him again soon. good luck with your music!

    best from pat m."


    Last edited by Gabor; 09-18-2019 at 07:24 AM.

  23. #122

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    "but whatever, i know larry is just trying to do good things with music"

    " have not really heard larry that much over the past years, but i know that wertico plays with him once a year or so and always comes back saying how much he enjoys it. "

    holy crap. talking about back-handed compliments...



  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMgolf66 View Post
    Call me shallow, and I'm ok with that, but he should've cut that hair and ditched the Charlie Brown shirts 30-35 years ago.
    Yes, it really hurt his career.

  25. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine View Post
    Pat and a lot of other people are down on Kenny G for having had the presumptuousness to overdub himself on Louis Armstrong's classic "What A Wonderful World". In this interview, Pat refers to the track as "musical necrophilia."

    As for whether Kenny can play jazz for real, yes, he can, and it has nothing to do with circular breathing. Listen to any of the early Jeff Lorber Fusion releases for Kenny Gorelick's great sax playing before he adopted the Musak-ified musical persona of "Kenny G." Despite Pat's scathing critique, I really like Kenny Gorelick's playing on the early Lorber Fusion stuff; it's soulful and hip. The Kenny G discs I can do without.

    Here are some of my favorite early Lorber tunes, in no particular order.

    There's no sax solo on Spur of the Moment, but the vid shows album credits with KG's real name, plus he co-wrote this song with Lorber and Danny Wilson:


    Kenny's kinda Coltrane-esque solo starts at 3:25:


    Kenny's solo at 1:35 - melodic, nice phrasing, a different vibe than what's in the previous tune; i.e. he plays to fit the song. Which is why I can't fathom how he went from stuff like this to pablum like Songbird... I guess money talks.


    Sax solo starts at 3:27 - not too flashy, not dull either, fits the laid-back vibe of the tune.


    Kenny's nice flute solo starts at 2:39.
    Always love Jeff Lorber.... was a local star in Portland in the late 70’s when I started grad school, tons of great live music at the time. I agree, Gorelick fit the bill nicely for what they were doing. And, I’m not interested in his own material, either. But, a great circle of musicians from that era in Portland, great memories.
    It all works out in the end; if it's not working out, it's not the end.

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I hope you don't mean it's a wig...
    OMG what if it is IS a wig... and he's covering up a totally bald head! Never saw that one coming...
    Last edited by lawson-stone; 09-19-2019 at 11:29 AM.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  27. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I am a huge fan of the old jazz greats: Django, Wes, Grant Green, Joe Pass, Pat Martino, Jim Hall, George Benson, Kenny Burrel, Barney Kessel etc. They all have that funky, bluesy, jazzy guitar style that I love. However, for some reason I just can't get into Pat Metheny. I hear everybody talk about how great he is. And I really want to like it. So far the only thing I really liked is his version of ATTYA with Jim Hall.

    All his other stuff feels so corny to me. Like the smooth jazz you hear in the mall/the weather channel or that new agey stuff. Especially his synth guitar.

    Also, as a person Pat Metheny seems quite pretentious. Of course what Kenny G did is not cool. But as I said, I think his music sounds almost as corny as Kenny G's stuff.

    Will the jazz police arrest me? Am I tone deaf? Am I not smart/deep enough? Will I get the banhammer?

    Check out Bright Size Life, it is his best, by far. And then Rejoicing.

    Fantastic albums with some killer rhythm sections as well.
    Testing a Gibson ES335 vs Harley Benton HB 35 (very inexpensive semi hollow body guitar)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fGMIs1wNEA&t=185s

    Jamming the Jazz standard All the things you are
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUzDEct613g&t=3s

    Playing a solo over my friends tune Cookies and Cream
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJHqt_lpyKM

  28. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Thing is this still sounds better to me than Metheny’s trumpet synth tone.
    I neither love nor hate PM's mainstream jazz tone but that synth reminds me of a dental drill!!!

  29. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor View Post
    Just for the facts: PM was not so harsh.

    It is far from trashing It is actually more than dozen extremely admiring sentence on LC, and only one very polite, conditional thought about what we should not do in general. I am not into PM, but I really think the shame on LC and not on PM this case. Maybe I am hypersensitive to this, but making one himself/herself on the spotlight (and optionally making money) on other's achievements, values, death or tragedy is definitely a no do. The whole world can remember and admire Wes legacy even in daily basis by listening Wes recordings. No one can think he/her playing over Wes is necessary for this. The overdubbing thing is particularly sensitive, because overdubbed artist has no chance to agree or disagree...

    Here is PMs opinion on LC from PMs official web site:
    (Pat Metheny : Question & Answer)
    Indeed, seems some people are not quite getting it. If you want to pay respect to someone you admire record your own version with you playing on it. Don’t take an artists original recordings and put your own shit on there. It’s disrespectful. Which was the crux of Methenys rant. In effect you are saying I’m as good as Wes / Armstrong and I deserve to be heard in the same context. In both cases with Coryell and gorelick, however good anyone thinks they are, I don’t think anyone would dispute that they are not peers or equals of Wes or Satchmo. In fact Metheny does draw a distinction with tony Bennett and Billie holiday, more or less saying, even though he found it odd to do it, at least Bennett and Holiday were acknowledged as the best in their field. Can you say the same for coryell and gorelick?

  30. #129

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    I think PM ( for me ) probably deserves the Genius title because he was asked to be on the UM Jazz Faculty at a very young age .Really understood Music in general.But had to work really hard on the Guitar itself to play fluidly etc. I can relate to that part ... I think it's cool that he has made a lot of money playing Guitar- probably the rarest 'skill ' of all...When you hear me play - you crabs in the basket won't even believe it's me-
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-11-2019 at 01:20 AM.

  31. #130

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    "think PM ( for me ) probably deserves the Genius title because he was asked to be on the UM Jazz Faculty at a very young age ."

    That constitutes genius?
    Um, ok

  32. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon View Post
    "think PM ( for me ) probably deserves the Genius title because he was asked to be on the UM Jazz Faculty at a very young age ."

    That constitutes genius?
    Um, ok
    Yes - that is the precise mathematical equivalent of Genius as measured on a standard Genius Slide Rule or
    Genius Laserometer Tool .

    As soon as you program in the call from University of Miami for a professorship in the Genius chosen field at under age 20 the Laserometer goes into the Genius Zone ( the purple section).

    Batteries not included.


    Let's have a Poll of all of us who have been offered a full professorship in our chosen field by a major University while still in our teens .

    Ready ....go.
    Sign up now ! Before all the space is taken. To save space only reply if this HAS happened to you.

    OK - maybe not a ' Genius ' but he must have impressed a lot of people right ?
    So despite all the above- lol - your point is well taken -maybe Genius IS too strong a word = guilty.
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-19-2019 at 09:48 AM.

  33. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon View Post
    "think PM ( for me ) probably deserves the Genius title because he was asked to be on the UM Jazz Faculty at a very young age ."

    That constitutes genius?
    Um, ok
    Yes, imo, that clearly constitutes genius by definition... "exceptional intellectual or creative power or other natural ability."

    Offered a postion as a teenager! That has to be more rare than 1 out of a million in the general population... that certainly is exceptional to the genius degree cubed .
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  34. #133

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    Despite my smartass almost funny answer I think fep made a good point.

    Exceptional - sure ...genius not too sure, a little too strong I think .
    To each his own though- I think Fagen and Becker were Musical Geniuses - many might not. Also Metheny has lots of Grammys and huge record sales - so a lot of people think he's brilliant - no doubt about that.

    I hope my math was right Metheny was teaching at UM at 18 or 19 right ?

  35. #134

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    As a generalization, it's my opinion that those who like Metheney, McLaughlin and Ritenour probably first arrived in Music through the Rock door. Others, like myself, who played in R & B and Funk bands naturally gravitated to Wes, George Benson, Joe Pass, Grant Green, Pat Martino, Freddie Green, etc. I have never been able to listen to M, M and R's music. It does nothing for me. I want to be moved when I play or listen to music. Otherwise, why bother when there's some good caviar and Russian vodka waiting in the other room and some classic Wes on the turntable. Good playing . . . Marinero
    Last edited by Marinero; 09-19-2019 at 02:40 PM.

  36. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa View Post
    Hey - a talented guy good Guitarist not a raw emotion Guitarist .... great Composer ...great Pop Guitarist..

    Not a heavyweight badass like Benson or etc...

    Like many Jazz Guitarists - he has a layer of hipness filter that dilutes raw emotion through his instrument TBH which although I appreciate Metheny's frankness about other Guitarists and Jazz Musicians but I wondered why he was so rough on Kenny G .

    I first heard both of them on the smooth jazz Radio stations - and some of Metheny's stuff is definitely in that category and Kenny G can Play and has circular breathing

    They both seem to be the same ilk or Genre ...I know Pat has embraced the Jazz Repertoire much more than Kenny G.

    And I doubt seriously that Pat could outplay Kenny G ...regardless of material.


    Do you Guys think Metheny could seriously challenge Kenny G on some Jazz Tunes ?


    f
    Seminar: "Spontaneous Combustion, Credibility, & the WTF Moment" Maybe unduly harsh, but like Pat or not..."that's some f***ed up repugnant ****."
    A more realistic question would be how many cats on the planet can hang with Pat...in any genre?

  37. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero View Post
    As a generalization, it's my opinion that those who like Metheney, McLaughlin and Ritenour probably first arrived in Music through the Rock door. Others, like myself, who played in R & B and Funk bands naturally gravitated to Wes, George Benson, Joe Pass, Grant Green, Pat Martino, Freddie Green, etc. I have never been able to listen to M, M and R's music. It does nothing for me. I want to be moved when I play or listen to music. Otherwise, why bother when there's some good caviar and Russian vodka waiting in the other room and some classic Wes on the turntable. Good playing . . . Marinero
    I doubt that's a valid generalization. I know many people who like all of the above, and arrived at jazz from various paths (myself included, though I've never really gotten into Lee Ritenour specifically).

    John

  38. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu View Post
    When the jazz police come knocking, just tell them that you only listen to horn players.

    Then you don't have to deal with Metheny, AND you get street cred for being a self-loathing guitarist.

    Win-win.
    That’s the way!

    ‘Oh yeah, I’m way too cool to listen to guitar players.’

    (Metheny makes the barbed comment in his Pasquale Grasso article about this haha)

  39. #138

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    There was a mid 80s interview with him in Guitar Player. He hit the nail on the head himself. He said most guitar players just don’t get him. “Huh? I don’t get it.” He laughed. He can be an acquired taste and that’s totally fine. He’s not a shredder and not a bopper. I certainly don’t like everything. And at a certain point he started copying himself it seems to me. But I’ve always most admired originality. He’s that. He started all that.

    BUT I think he’s an amazing force of nature. Regarding PM it’s not his guitar playing. It’s his overall music. And once again I’m not a fan of all of it. But I’m not a fan of ANYBODIES everything. My biggest heroes have songs or performances that leave me meh. But when PM first album came out it knocked me out. Nothing else like it at the time. So forward thinking. First Circle (the song), Off Ramp and bits and pieces of other songs.

    He’s a composer. Those guitar players who aspire to be composers have a hard time avoiding him.

    And mostly I admire his artistic control over his career. Few artists have that in jazz. Chick Corea. To have an organization, a team set up to just have the purpose to aid you to be a creative force. Wow. I really, REALLY admire all of that.


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  40. #139

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    Well I don’t know about 10 years later all the jazz guitarists sounded like him

  41. #140

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    I feel that Bright Size Life is still the template for the tone of like 90% of jazz guitarists.... including this one, tbh

  42. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
    There was a mid 80s interview with him in Guitar Player. He hit the nail on the head himself. He said most guitar players just don’t get him. “Huh? I don’t get it.” He laughed. He can be an acquired taste and that’s totally fine. He’s not a shredder and not a bopper. I certainly don’t like everything. And at a certain point he started copying himself it seems to me. But I’ve always most admired originality. He’s that. He started all that.

    BUT I think he’s an amazing force of nature. Regarding PM it’s not his guitar playing. It’s his overall music. And once again I’m not a fan of all of it. But I’m not a fan of ANYBODIES everything. My biggest heroes have songs or performances that leave me meh. But when PM first album came out it knocked me out. Nothing else like it at the time. So forward thinking. First Circle (the song), Off Ramp and bits and pieces of other songs.

    He’s a composer. Those guitar players who aspire to be composers have a hard time avoiding him.

    And mostly I admire his artistic control over his career. Few artists have that in jazz. Chick Corea. To have an organization, a team set up to just have the purpose to aid you to be a creative force. Wow. I really, REALLY admire all of that.


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    Well said.

    Seriously. The first time I heard "The First Circle" I was out jogging listening on headphones. When the song ended, I had to stop. I honestly had no idea what I had just encountered musically. I didn't know how to respond. It was like I'd been met by something that seemed familiar: acoustic guitars, voices, keyboards,synth, bass, percussion, all of that familiar to me... but all inhabited by something ganz anders, wholly other. That song captures something about Metheny's music for me.

    Then there was "To the End of the World," "Half Life of Absolution," "Roots of Coincidence," "Third Wind," "The Gathering Sky"--he just has something big and enveloping going on.

    He's the guitarist I listen to when I'm tired of the guitar.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  43. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post

    He's the guitarist I listen to when I'm tired of the guitar.
    Yeah, well I don’t listen to as much guitar as I do some other instruments, so it’s all kind of fresh to me!


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  44. #143

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    The miserablists of Montreal have something to say about this. Unfortunately nobody knows what it is.


  45. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I feel that Bright Size Life is still the template for the tone of like 90% of jazz guitarists.... including this one, tbh
    Honestly, I don't hear any tone, it just sounds heavily processed and saturated w reverb.

    If that's what 90% of the current players "tone" is like you can put me squarely in the other 10%.

  46. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A. View Post
    I doubt that's a valid generalization. I know many people who like all of the above, and arrived at jazz from various paths (myself included, though I've never really gotten into Lee Ritenour specifically).

    John
    The comment also wasn't an opinion but instead speculation about how others came to like certain styles of jazz. Unless one has actual data (e.g. polling data), one should generally avoid speculating about the views of others.

    As for myself; I heard Beck's Blow-by-Blow and that got me interested in instrumental guitar music. Shortly after a jazz guitarist moved into the house I lived at with my Dad. One day I heard Body-Talk by Benson,,,, and from there Wes, Green, etc....

    Now if that jazz guitarist hadn't moved in, I do see where one could say a more 'logical' path is from Beck to Ritenour, etc....(instrumental guitar music played on a solid body), than Beck to Wes, Green,,, etc..

    So yea, 'arrived at jazz from various paths' is more likely to be the case for most of us (I assume, but, that is just my speculation!).

  47. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon View Post
    Honestly, I don't hear any tone, it just sounds heavily processed and saturated w reverb.

    If that's what 90% of the current players "tone" is like you can put me squarely in the other 10%.
    Bright Size Life? No. You might be thinking of a later PM album. BSL is pretty naked compared to other things. I think the processing was ECM reverbs. I won’t say it’s dry but I don’t think so. Jaco sure.


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    Last edited by henryrobinett; 09-20-2019 at 06:16 AM.

  48. #147

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    Have you heard him play with Michael Brecker? I don’t know what you’re talking about.


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  49. #148

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    "I do not believe it is necessary to be at an artist's skill level for your dislike of them to be valid, and for the dislike of prominent artists to not just be acceptable, but an important part of forming a musical identity. We don't have to like everyone we hear.... And if we liked every player we heard equally we would have no style ourselves. I get tired of the bland positivity exhibited by many." Christinan77

    Yes. And, also . . . in life, we need to coalesce our ideas, experiences and subjective analyses when thinking about music and musicians. When I mentioned earlier that many guitarists like Metheny came from a Rock background, it comes from all of the above. I hear it in the licks of his Music, the feel of his personal expression and, to me, the tameness and sameness of most of his improvisations. You don't hear that in Pass, Martino, or Benson. Thanks to all who like apples when others prefer oranges. Good playing . . . Marinero

  50. #149

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    He always seems to be enjoying himself.

  51. #150

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    Just dropping in to to voice my own controversial opinion...

    This is my favorite Metheny recording.

    *ducks*

    On the Turntable: Steve Reich - Phases (box set), Fred Frith Guitar Quartet - Ayaya Moses
    Guitar:
    Fender AVRI '59 w/ TI Swing 11s and Tyson Tone pickups
    Through: Polytone Mini Brute II