Can't get into Pat Metheny

**christianm77** · 09-13-2019, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by Average Joe

there is a feeling that when you're talking about the most successful and influencial player of the past 40 years, the onus is on you if you can't get into it.

I think the sentence 'x musician is clearly amazing, but doesn't quite get me going' goes a long way. Then gives me time to listen to music I actually enjoy.

Focus on what you love and dive deep. Ignore the rest.

**lawson-stone** · 09-13-2019, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by djg

I love Pat Metheny but... yikes... that's hard to un-see.

**Jazzstdnt** · 09-13-2019, 11:39 AM

Must have been hot that night, lol.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 09-13-2019, 12:49 PM

Who among us, who's old enough, didn't do things in the '80s they are not proud of today?

**Jazzstdnt** · 09-13-2019, 05:22 PM

I know. Let's start a thread on every player that we "can't get into". (kidding of course)

Seems kind of counter productive, but in this case actually garnered more praise than the opposite...

**Jazzstdnt** · 09-13-2019, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I worry about attributing musical features directly to race. Hard to walk the line between historical sensitivity and ethnic stereotyping.

As to the final question, it's easy to answer, hard to do: Play what you love. Play what you'll never by happy if you don't. Let the name callers and haters do whatever they do. Just play the music your heart needs to play.

Uh yeah. I should have said African American.

In other words, it's really culture. OTOH - if we're honest we recognize that race is a big part of it. The whole world likes African American music, it's unique. It's not just African, and it's not just American. An analogy would be the uniqueness of different Latin styles (Brazilian, Afro-Cuban, Mexican, Argentinian), and for that matter, Euro styles. Culture, race, geography, heritage, all play an important part of the art.

**jameslovestal** · 09-13-2019, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt

Uh yeah. I should have said African American.

In other words, it's really culture. OTOH - if we're honest we recognize that race is a big part of it. The whole world likes African American music, it's unique. It's not just African, and it's not just American. An analogy would be the uniqueness of different Latin styles (Brazilian, Afro-Cuban, Mexican, Argentinian), and for that matter, Euro styles. Culture, race, geography, heritage, all play an important part of the art.

Race is a social construct and one I don't recognize. I.e. it's really culture. Period.

**Flat** · 09-13-2019, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I love Pat Metheny but... yikes... that's hard to un-see.

I think he is trying to get people to close their eyes and just listen.

**lawson-stone** · 09-13-2019, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by ronjazz

Metheny as a guitarist is such a small part of the picture, even though he has constantly worked on his sound and concept as a player. He is a master of the studio, a great "live" producer, and a composer/arranger at the top of the heap. Not everyone should like everything, of course, and not liking Pat's work is perfectly fine, after all, we have many choices, but my collection that started so many years ago with Jim Hall's sideman (partner, actually) work with Chico, Rollins, Giuffre and Farmer and grew to include much Wes, Barney, Django, HR, Burrell, McLaughlin, Abercrombie, Stern, etc. also includes 2 dozen recordings with Metheny as leader or collaborator, and I must say his influence on my production, both live and recorded, has been very valuable. He has full control of his professional life, that's quite the rarity in our business.

That's well said. Metheny is not one of the guitarists that, when I hear him, I think "how can I play like that?" Instead, when I hear him, I don't think about my own playing at all. I just listen and absorb an approach to the instrument that is so different from anything I can even conceive.

**Jazzstdnt** · 09-14-2019, 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by Flat

I think he is trying to get people to close their eyes and just listen.

Either that, or he was trying to pull a few groupies and Lyle's hair wasn't helping their cause.

**DMgolf66** · 09-14-2019, 01:23 AM

Call me shallow, and I'm ok with that, but he should've cut that hair and ditched the Charlie Brown shirts 30-35 years ago.

**Jazzism** · 09-14-2019, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Lark

Also, as a person Pat Metheny seems quite pretentious. Of course what Kenny G did is not cool. But as I said, I think his music sounds almost as corny as Kenny G's stuff.

maybe his music sounds corny to you but at least he’s not a practitioner of musical necrophilia unlike Gorelick!

**Jazzism** · 09-14-2019, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by fep

Even though I'm not a Kenny G fan, I found Metheny's bullying of him disgusting.

funny, but I found Gorelicks desecration of a jazz legend disgusting. Go figure!

**geogio** · 09-14-2019, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt

Well he is great, and always was. And the players that you listed are the classics of jazz guitar, no doubt.

My final, and politically incorrect, point/observation on this topic. Can white players ever really sound like black players? The closer they get, the more forced and disingenuous they sound, or so it seems to me.

Two of my biggest influences are Jim Hall, and Nelson Riddle. I seem to always hearken to the conundrums of Jim Hall and the musicality of Nelson Riddle. Heck, I'm even a big fan of Mantovani and Morricone... but that is simply, what does it for me, I don't know why...

**jaco** · 09-14-2019, 09:57 AM

The first time I saw Pat was in Boston 1973, I think he was about 19 years old at the time. Gig was in a church cellar somewhere in Allston. He was in a trio with Bob Moses and a vibes player (not Gary Burton). I was totally blown away. I saw him several times in Boston (sometimes on the elevator at Berklee) in different configurations. Duet with Mick Goodrich, Ralph Towner, trio with Jaco, quartet with Gary Burton, then over the years with the PMG and on and on. His evolution over the years has been incredible. But I think my favorite is just Pat and an acoustic guitar. His sense of harmony and moving lines between chords is amazing. I've met him several times. Memorable one was at the airport in Rome. He's not always a personable guy and like all of us probably has good days and bad days. He is an incredible musician.

**grandstick01** · 09-14-2019, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Lark

All his other stuff feels so corny to me. Like the smooth jazz you hear in the mall/the weather channel or that new agey stuff. Especially his synth guitar.

Also, as a person Pat Metheny seems quite pretentious. Of course what Kenny G did is not cool. But as I said, I think his music sounds almost as corny as Kenny G's stuff.

Perhaps, un-ironically, his music DOES get a bunch of air time on The Weather Channel ("Spring Ain't Here" plays a lot during the "your local forecast" segments).

I've seen PMG several times in concert. Most recently, I saw Pat on the opening night of his latest tour. He was playing in a trio, in a small converted church in upstate NY. If it tells you anything about how approachable his music is, my sister (who is not a jazz fan) mentioned that she recognized several of his original tunes that they played.

At times, I think most musicians (myself included) come across as being pretentious - (although music is my life's passion, I don't take myself seriously at all as a musician). I've come to accept that as part of the "shtick," or routine. Given his history as an educator, and as a performer (and including all of the notable musicians he has performed/composed/recorded with), his demeanor may be an acquired air.

Regardless, he has left his mark on millions of people over the years (as has Kenny Gorelick).

**princeplanet** · 09-14-2019, 11:57 PM

Yeah, the notorious lesson tape- check it out:

The soloing from around 1 minute in through to about 5.30 shows a side to Pat I've not yet heard on any of his recordings (feel free to point me in the right direction). Infact it seems so different than what I expect from PM that I was originally confused and thought that the student was the one soloing!

Of course it's the student that is comping rather poorly for poor Mr PM, who still manages to come up with all these beautiful minor blues lines that I must get around to transcribing one day. Oh, and despite the appalling cassette recording quality, it's still the best tone I'e heard heard from Pat as well!

**FatPick** · 09-15-2019, 01:04 AM

In the Jaco biography I read, they said that when they recorded Bright Size Life, Metheny wanted Charlie Haden (IIRC) on double bass and was talked into using Jaco instead at the last minute. Wow. Pays to be lucky.

**ccroft** · 09-15-2019, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

...The soloing from around 1 minute in through to about 5.30 shows a side to Pat I've not yet heard on any of his recordings (feel free to point me in the right direction)...

Best playing I've heard from him. Thanks for posting. I also really enjoyed his talk.

I've heard him for decades. Never dug his gig that much. For one thing, he seems to be having entirely too much fun for my liking :-)

I mean... clearly he's a great musician and a wonderful guitarist. To me he seems like a really good player. Can't fault him for his success though. He wouldn't be where he is if he only played what I like to listen to.

**christianm77** · 09-15-2019, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Yeah, the notorious lesson tape- check it out:

The soloing from around 1 minute in through to about 5.30 shows a side to Pat I've not yet heard on any of his recordings (feel free to point me in the right direction). Infact it seems so different than what I expect from PM that I was originally confused and thought that the student was the one soloing!

Of course it's the student that is comping rather poorly for poor Mr PM, who still manages to come up with all these beautiful minor blues lines that I must get around to transcribing one day. Oh, and despite the appalling cassette recording quality, it's still the best tone I'e heard heard from Pat as well!

Yeah, I understand this is Pats original style - his bebop influenced playing, which is more similar to his playing as a sideman in a straightahead context.

I can’t remember where I read this, but I understand he deliberately changed his style to be less chromatic and boppy for his own compositions.

**grahambop** · 09-15-2019, 06:23 AM

Also note how rock-solid his time is. Not affected in the slightest by the awkward comping of the other guy.

Whether or not you like PM, I would love to have time as good as that.

**Jazzism** · 09-15-2019, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by FatPick

In the Jaco biography I read, they said that when they recorded Bright Size Life, Metheny wanted Charlie Haden (IIRC) on double bass and was talked into using Jaco instead at the last minute. Wow. Pays to be lucky.

is that the one by bill milkowski? been a while since i read it, but I seem to recall that he originally wanted Dave holland, even had rehearsals with him, because Dave holland had a lot of pedigree. But bob moses talked him out of it saying more or less, ‘your music sounds so much more alive with Jaco’
cheers!

**Gabor** · 09-15-2019, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by FatPick

In the Jaco biography I read, they said that when they recorded Bright Size Life, Metheny wanted Charlie Haden (IIRC) on double bass and was talked into using Jaco instead at the last minute. Wow. Pays to be lucky.

I really love Charlie Haden, on 80/81, or with Keith Jarrett, I listened pretty much all his recording under his name too.
...
But I have to say: I am really happy for Jaco he is on Bright Size Life. What those three did there is part of the jazz history now. I am not sure with double bass and Haden would be such a unique milestone.

**geogio** · 09-15-2019, 09:18 PM

PM is almost always accessible, I've enjoyed his work, i especially was impressed with his X release with Ornette and Haynes... knocked my left sock off. Previous to that, Anthony Braxton's Orchestra of Birds knocked my right sock off.