Can't get into Pat Metheny

[lawson-stone]

Well he is great, and always was. And the players that you listed are the classics of jazz guitar, no doubt.

The thing is, the baby boomers felt the need to move forward. They grew up on rock, they heard/saw/contributed to what Miles started with his "Directions In Music".

McLaughlin said something to the effect of "we can't just stay frozen in the 60s" (something like that). To me, that's a big pointer at Wes. Wes and Joe (and a few others) really took that style of straight-ahead jazz guitar to its zenith, did they not?

My final, and politically incorrect, point/observation on this topic. Can white players ever really sound like black players? The closer they get, the more forced and disingenuous they sound, or so it seems to me.

So what's a white, baby boomer or later, jazz guitarist to do? Strike out on something new, or try to ape Wes for the whole of their lives?

I worry about attributing musical features directly to race. Hard to walk the line between historical sensitivity and ethnic stereotyping.

As to the final question, it's easy to answer, hard to do: Play what you love. Play what you'll never by happy if you don't. Let the name callers and haters do whatever they do. Just play the music your heart needs to play.

[Bflat233]

Pat Metheny has been a massive inspiration to me. Unlike many here, it was his music that led me to discover Wes and Grant, and further back in time - Charlie and Oscar - and from there, to explore jazz music that didn't necessarily feature the guitar. I appreciate most of Pat's music, including what he did with chorus, delay, and even the Roland. His most recent recordings with Unity Band and Unity Group are some of my favorites and show that he is continuing to create and challenge himself and others around him (see the interview with Chris Potter about the UB/UG tours).

He seems to have reached a point where he wants to give back, too. What he's doing on this current tour, showcasing young talent, is one example. I understand that he has been hosting contemporary, perhaps lesser known, jazz guitarists at his home to break bread, to share experiences and play music together. To me, there is no question that he earned the recognition by the NEA as a Jazz Master a long time ago.

That said, there are jazz guitarists that I can't get into, though I may have gone to their shows and listened to their recordings. That doesn't diminish their stature in the music world, nor does it mean that I don't respect their work. All it means is that I won't invest my time listening to them (unless my musical tastes change, and they do).

[powersurge]

Yeah, it's his articulation that blows me away. No one sounds like him and he doesn't sound like "anything" or "anyone" - it's really a stand alone thing. He's definitely very bop-based, but he also has a very distinct sense of melodicism that is once again, his own thing. Let's not forget to mention that the guy is a killer musician in general. He wrote the set piece for this past years GFA competition (one, if not THE biggest classical guitar competition in the world), and it's an incredible piece. I'm a composer who comes from a classical guitar background so I'm pretty picky about classical guitar rep, but he really nailed it.

[Lark]

Whoa thanks a lot for all the replies. Didn' expect that haha.

Looking back at my post I sounded a bit harsh. Don't get me wrong, I fully agree that Pat Metheny is an amazing musican. No doubt about that. I also have nothing but respect for him. If you read that he was giving 180-250 shows per year, thats insane! I also really love that audio recording of Pat giving someone a guitar lesson. Some insightful stuff!

Last few days I've been listening to Pat. I quite like the song Bright Sized Life. Also really love that version of "I Love Her", sounds beautiful. His acoustic interpretation of Girl From Ipanema however.... Its completely lost on me.

I will make a playlist of all the suggestions you guys posted!

Thanks!

[Sam Sherry]

I strongly prefer his earlier stuff with the Pat Metheny Group . . . So maybe try listening to the first Pat Metheny Group album, which is just called "The Pat Metheny Group" and the next one which is called "American Garage." I don't particularly care for his first big splash which was "Bright Size Life" . . . I have talked to a lot of jazz fans over the years, however, who feel exactly the opposite.

Speaking. I loved "Bright Size Life," felt that the first few PMG records didn't reach its level and that Pat started to really find himself as a grownup with "80/81."

I've ALWAYS prefered him as a sideman. . . .

No argument and great choices. For my ear, let's get gritty with Metheny, MBrecker, Larry Goldings and that man, Elvin Jones:

[Hep To The Jive]

I think Pat is one of the best. Not the PMG stuff, never really liked it that much. But, like Christian said, there is sideman's work, or collaborations.

My absolute favorite, I Can See Your House From Here album with Sco. All fantastic tunes, playing, vibe, etc.

Listen to this one, it's soo good, and I'm not a ballad kinda guy at all.

[jameslovestal]

Hey! I was!

Not my favourite straightahead dude.... but.... how many people are instantly recognisable from note 1?

I hear his playing in a straightahead context as a uniquely guitaristic take on bop. It’s not like classical bop, but it’s his own take. Very slippery....

Like you I like Pat as a sideman since those recordings are typically in a straightahead context.

E.g. This 1999 release of Michael Brecker with first-rate sidemen like Pat, and Larry Goldings.

[Doctor Jeff]

I first saw him in a college gym in Decorah IA in 1981. They loaded in their equipment, they played the gig, they loaded out their equipment, got in the van and drove away. The next time I saw him was two or three years later at the Northrop Auditorium in Minneapolis, so he had moved up a bit, and while he can fill large venues and festivals he still does some club gigs such as playing at the Dakota. He was just there with one of his projects called Side Eye last week.

You were in Decorah? I LOVE Decorah. Mabe's Pizza--amiright??

I worked there quite a bit--lived upstream in La Crosse a long time--and my sister lived there awhile. Really neat town with great scenery and especially trout fishing.

I like the Cities too--spend a fair amount of time there as we have relatives in the area. Surprisingly I have NEVER been to the Dakota, but I have been to First Avenue.

Re' Metheny--I used to love him a huge amount, in fact he was one of the reasons I got a 175 back in the early 80's. Nowadays I don't keep up with him so much. I agree I like the first decade or so of music very much, the latter stuff is usually good, with a few things that don't excite me much. I have seen him a couple of times in Atlanta. Great shows.

[grahambop]

I always liked Pat’s version of Horace Silver’s ‘Lonely Woman’:

[jbernstein91]

What's not to like about this?:

[Gabor]

...Am I tone deaf? Am I not smart/deep enough?...

(just for the record: I did not listen PM since at least 5 years, and do no plan to listen in the near future, keep reading)

If anyone stamps you "tone deaf" or not "smart/deep enough" just because you do not like PM, then that's a sure signal to close that conversation with that person, or at least close the conversation on topic PM with her/him. But I think your question is more rhetoric than real life, as the Orwell like "jazz police" idea of yours also.

***

Personality does not play. If we would rule out all artists from human history who were terrible person, then we successfully erased half of human culture.

***

Not liking PM is one thing but concluding he is similar Kenny G is a whole different thing. With this conclusion you are gambling to get a real life "yes" answer to your rhetoric questions, where you supposedly sure bet a supportive loud No No No answer. It is always better to know your subject, it really helps :-)

***

On knowing your subject I mean the following. Know this recordings, listen those at least a few times, if you can not enjoy PM, then listen his partners, they are all in the most respected artists on their instruments:

- Bright Size Life is on many 100 most important Jazz recording list. (Jaco! (no words necessary), but Bob Moses contributes also, listening just the drum track of Bob Moses worth the time.
- Listen 80/81 with Dewey Redman, Charlie Haden, Brecker and DeJohnette.
- Rejoicing (again, if you can not stand PM, then listen Haden and Billy Higgins. Listening just those two guys on the album 5 times worth more than 1 year jazz book reading.
- Question and Answer (Solar, ATTYA, Old Folks(!))
- Trio 99-00
- Day Trip (if you have no time, then start with Calvin's Keys)

Those six recordings could be a work of life for others.
You wrote "can't get". You can not get anything for free. You must pay the price..., this case your time. You may still end not liking PM as me, but surely will not think he is like Kenny G.

[christianm77]

Yeah the Kenny G thing? I think that’s a reaction to the texture and production of the music. I used to find it really hard to listen to Weather Report cos of all the synths. I kind of got through it in the end.

[Doctor Jeff]

Yeah the Kenny G thing? I think that’s a reaction to the texture and production of the music. I used to find it really hard to listen to Weather Report cos of all the synths. I kind of got through it in the end.

No comparison between Kenny G and "smooth jazz" synths in general, and Joe Zawinul.

Zawinul was a virtuoso of the synth. One of THE best multikeyboardists of all time.

I burned out on synths in the 80's--can't stand to listen to much of that stuff now. But Weather Report...every sound is a revelation, including the synths.

[pcsanwald]

I think there are basically all possible opinions on this thread. I'll add mine: I love the PMG, it's by far my favorite Pat Metheny stuff.

Some of my first exposure to jazz guitar was the trio album with Roy Haynes and Dave Holland, Roy has been my favorite drummer ever since then. It's probably some of my least favorite of Pat's playing on that record, it's fine, virtuosic Pat, but not that memorable. "old folks" is kind of a highlight for me.

The thing I love about the PMG is the composing: larger song structures, with harmonically distinct solo sections, modulations, all that. The albums with Pedro Aznar are my favorite, I really love these. In some ways, I feel like the PMG sets up Pat's guitar style perfectly, they have an absolute commitment to melody, and when Pat solos it's just incredible. With smaller group stuff, it occasionally just feels like too much guitar to me. As a guitarist, of course I'm aghast at how well Pat plays, but as a listener, it's a bit too guitar-centric for me honestly.

I also feel like some of Pat's solos on PMG recordings are some of his most well-architected musical statements, listen to his solo on "James" from Offramp, it's a perfect musical statement that builds to a wonderful climax.

For me, this is the PMG at their peak:

Pedro Aznar, what a talent!

[emanresu]

I bought my first ridiculous pair of headphones and randomly put on Beyond the Missouri sky. And didn't dislike Metheny anymore

[lawson-stone]

I think there are basically all possible opinions on this thread. I'll add mine: I love the PMG, it's by far my favorite Pat Metheny stuff.

Some of my first exposure to jazz guitar was the trio album with Roy Haynes and Dave Holland, Roy has been my favorite drummer ever since then. It's probably some of my least favorite of Pat's playing on that record, it's fine, virtuosic Pat, but not that memorable. "old folks" is kind of a highlight for me.

The thing I love about the PMG is the composing: larger song structures, with harmonically distinct solo sections, modulations, all that. The albums with Pedro Aznar are my favorite, I really love these. In some ways, I feel like the PMG sets up Pat's guitar style perfectly, they have an absolute commitment to melody, and when Pat solos it's just incredible. With smaller group stuff, it occasionally just feels like too much guitar to me. As a guitarist, of course I'm aghast at how well Pat plays, but as a listener, it's a bit too guitar-centric for me honestly.

I also feel like some of Pat's solos on PMG recordings are some of his most well-architected musical statements, listen to his solo on "James" from Offramp, it's a perfect musical statement that builds to a wonderful climax.

For me, this is the PMG at their peak:

Pedro Aznar, what a talent!

Oh yeah. For me, that's quintessential Metheny! This one two, for me, is everything I love about PMG.

Also, two words: Antonio Sanchez

Also... at about 12:00 in this, the drama and culmination of the piece almost moves me to tears. It's almost unbearably moving.

[cosmic gumbo]

Pat has one of the most important hallmarks a jazz musician can bring to the table...his own personal voice. You can tell it's him in about 3 seconds...

[Bbmaj7#5#9]

I bought my first ridiculous pair of headphones and randomly put on Beyond the Missouri sky. And didn't dislike Metheny anymore

I think Pat Metheny have influenced me much more as an acoustic guitarist and composer than an electric guitarist. Even if much of his later productions with PMG doesn’t impress me that much, the acoustic albums are still made of high aesthetic quality. ”A Map Of The World” and ”Beyond The Missouri Sky” are in my opinion two of the best albums Metheny have released since the ECM period. As already mentioned earlier in this thread, I wish there’ll be more guitar duet recordings with Metheny in the future. His collaboration with Jim Hall needs a new competitor 20 years later.

[christianm77]

No comparison between Kenny G and "smooth jazz" synths in general, and Joe Zawinul.

Zawinul was a virtuoso of the synth. One of THE best multikeyboardists of all time.

I burned out on synths in the 80's--can't stand to listen to much of that stuff now. But Weather Report...every sound is a revelation, including the synths.

Actually I wasn’t making a comparison between WR and Kenny G, just want to clear that up quick haha

(Although that’s probably a great way to upset fusion fans come to think of it :-))

[christianm77]

Pat has one of the most important hallmarks a jazz musician can bring to the table...his own personal voice. You can tell it's him in about 3 seconds...

Less

[Average Joe]

I just want to thank everybody who contributed in this thread for speaking so eloquently on PM and why they might not like him. I've never really connected with his playing, and as much "like what you like" is a solid maxim, there is a feeling that when you're talking about the most successful and influencial player of the past 40 years, the onus is on you if you can't get into it. This thread is very enlightening and thought provoking in putting into words some of aspects I've never made entirely clear to myself.

I suppose in my case there's something about his time feel that never sat well.

[dlew919]

I admire his playing but I’d rather listen to mike stern or Bill frisell or Allan Holdsworth. That’s just me though. I find Metheny a bit sterile. But I don’t deny his talent or his passion.


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[ronjazz]

can you imagine john coltrane performing in hot pants wearing a wig?

Totally irrelevant. Metheny wears neither hot pants nor a wig.

[ronjazz]

Metheny as a guitarist is such a small part of the picture, even though he has constantly worked on his sound and concept as a player. He is a master of the studio, a great "live" producer, and a composer/arranger at the top of the heap. Not everyone should like everything, of course, and not liking Pat's work is perfectly fine, after all, we have many choices, but my collection that started so many years ago with Jim Hall's sideman (partner, actually) work with Chico, Rollins, Giuffre and Farmer and grew to include much Wes, Barney, Django, HR, Burrell, McLaughlin, Abercrombie, Stern, etc. also includes 2 dozen recordings with Metheny as leader or collaborator, and I must say his influence on my production, both live and recorded, has been very valuable. He has full control of his professional life, that's quite the rarity in our business.

[ronjazz]

Such small minds here sometimes...