Can't get into Pat Metheny

[christianm77]

I’d rather not listen to Berlioz if that’s ok

[jbernstein91]

I think Chris Potter's soloing is closer to Coltrane than to Berlioz, but that's just me.

[Jonah]

Hey - a talented guy good Guitarist not a raw emotion Guitarist .... great Composer ...great Pop Guitarist..

Not a heavyweight badass like Benson or etc...

Like many Jazz Guitarists - he has a layer of hipness filter that dilutes raw emotion through his instrument TBH which although I appreciate Metheny's frankness about other Guitarists and Jazz Musicians but I wondered why he was so rough on Kenny G .

I first heard both of them on the smooth jazz Radio stations - and some of Metheny's stuff is definitely in that category and Kenny G can Play and has circular breathing

They both seem to be the same ilk or Genre ...I know Pat has embraced the Jazz Repertoire much more than Kenny G.

And I doubt seriously that Pat could outplay Kenny G ...regardless of material.

However - IF Pat is down on Kenny G because Kenny G could be a great Sax Player in addition to his Pop stuff - and the Jazzers just want to hear Kenny G challenge himself sometimes-

That's different . I apologize - I get it .

I am Pop / R&B but have benefited from being exposed to Jazz ( mostly here ) and tutored to an extent ( mostly here ) and Jazz does challenge IMO and is strong medicine lol.

Do you Guys think Metheny could seriously challenge Kenny G on some Jazz Tunes ?

answering your question ..
I don't care.. honestly. I don's how Kenny G can play, I don't care about what Pat said about him and how right or wrong he was and especially I do not care about circular breathing.

[christianm77]

I think Chris Potter's soloing is closer to Coltrane than to Berlioz, but that's just me.

Wait till you hear him on ophicleide

[christianm77]

Oh - that reminds me:

[rictroll]

Hey - a talented guy good Guitarist not a raw emotion Guitarist .... great Composer ...great Pop Guitarist..


Do you Guys think Metheny could seriously challenge Kenny G on some Jazz Tunes ?

Yes, pretty sure.

[Jazzstdnt]

Hey - a talented guy good Guitarist not a raw emotion Guitarist .... great Composer ...great Pop Guitarist..

Not a heavyweight badass like Benson or etc...

And I doubt seriously that Pat could outplay Kenny G ...regardless of material.

I'm not PM's biggest fan but I have to disagree with you here. I've seen him play live and have heard many recorded solos from the guy. His style is different, but just try to play Bright Size Life with the fire and accuracy that he did. His unique slidy vibrato thing ain't easy either. Most players wouldn't bother to master it, it has become part of his signature.

When I heard him play live he did a Guitar/Drum duet where he burned his ass off, kind of like McLaughlin likes to do with his super baddie drummers. Pat used hammer-ons and pull-offs where John would use pick strokes, but he did/does it masterfully and with great fire and zeal. He knows exactly what he's doing and can really go when he wants to! He was super fast, liked greased lighting. I'd never heard him play like that before, and was surprised.

And regarding an "improv play off" with Kenny G... well, people tend to be better at what they do, as opposed to not do. If one spends his life playing jazz changes and the other doesn't, why would we think that the latter would fare as well, or even better?

Such a presumption seems baseless.

[yebdox]

I think Chris Potter's soloing is closer to Coltrane than to Berlioz, but that's just me.

Most folks don’t know that Berlioz did NOT die of a drug overdose in France in the 1890’s. Instead, he went into hiding, shedded on alto, then moved to Kansas City, where he got the first alto position in Jay McShann’s band, next to... you guessed it, Charlie Parker, who then proceeded to steal all of Berlioz’s licks and invented Bebop shortly thereafter.

Parker is also said to have stolen most of Kenny G’s licks, (who is actually 97 years old, but well preserved) leaving him with no option but to then invent smooth jazz, along with relieving audiences of the burden of listening to troublesome and confusing chord changes, as well as insomnia.

And that, as Paul Harvey used to say, is the rest of the story..... Good Day!

[starjasmine]

Pat and a lot of other people are down on Kenny G for having had the presumptuousness to overdub himself on Louis Armstrong's classic "What A Wonderful World". In this interview, Pat refers to the track as "musical necrophilia."

As for whether Kenny can play jazz for real, yes, he can, and it has nothing to do with circular breathing. Listen to any of the early Jeff Lorber Fusion releases for Kenny Gorelick's great sax playing before he adopted the Musak-ified musical persona of "Kenny G." Despite Pat's scathing critique, I really like Kenny Gorelick's playing on the early Lorber Fusion stuff; it's soulful and hip. The Kenny G discs I can do without.

Here are some of my favorite early Lorber tunes, in no particular order.

There's no sax solo on Spur of the Moment, but the vid shows album credits with KG's real name, plus he co-wrote this song with Lorber and Danny Wilson:

Kenny's kinda Coltrane-esque solo starts at 3:25:

Kenny's solo at 1:35 - melodic, nice phrasing, a different vibe than what's in the previous tune; i.e. he plays to fit the song. Which is why I can't fathom how he went from stuff like this to pablum like Songbird... I guess money talks.

Sax solo starts at 3:27 - not too flashy, not dull either, fits the laid-back vibe of the tune.

Kenny's nice flute solo starts at 2:39.

[starjasmine]

Not meaning to hijack the thread, but here's a really entertaining discussion about the whole "Pat vs. Kenny" dustup...

Did Kenny G respond to Pat Metheny? - Straight Dope Message Board

[Flat]

Between Kenny and Pat, I know for sure who I would rather play like, whose musicianship I would rather possess.

But I can't quite make up my mind about which head of hair I would rather have (if it's some sort of package deal).

[wintermoon]

Just curious, a few here seem to have mentioned the "G" word in referring to Pat.
No, not Kenny G., but "genius"
I kinda like to reserve that term in jazz circles for cats like Duke, Bird, Monk, Miles, y'know, the innovative giants. I wouldn't even put Wes on that list and I adore his playing. Wes was a phenomenal player, maybe the greatest jazz guitarist and hugely influential but that doesn't necessarily tick the genius box for me. To me he was a brilliant linstrumentalist.
As I mentioned, not a fan of PM, but can certainly appreciate his musicianship, you'd have to he blind, well, at least deaf not to recognize that.
Not hearing the genius, just imo, carry on.....

[Jonah]

Just curious, a few here seem to have mentioned the "G" word in referring to Pat.
No, not Kenny G., but "genius"
I kinda like to reserve that term in jazz circles for cats like Duke, Bird, Monk, Miles, y'know, the innovative giants. I wouldn't even put Wes on that list and I adore his playing. Wes was a phenomenal player, maybe the greatest jazz guitarist and hugely influential but that doesn't necessarily tick the genius box for me. To me he was a brilliant linstrumentalist.
As I mentioned, not a fan of PM, but can certainly appreciate his musicianship, you'd have to he blind, well, at least deaf not to recognize that.
Not hearing the genius, just imo, carry on.....

I use the word 'genius' very specifically - for me genius is a particular kind of gift when the person does mostly things that are culturally outside general contex... there is some kind of irrational logics in the overall scope of their art/their aesthetics. THey can be seemingly within the conventional frame but the choices they make within this frame seem very unpredictable and spontanwous but at the same tome internally they seem to me the best choice possible (Mozart for example but not Beethoven).
I can name a few as an example - those that I would call genius: Chopin (but not Schumann - though I prefer him definitely - so genius does not necessarily means that his music is interesting from point of view of its contents), Schubert, Debussy, Wagner... in jazz Bird, Trane, Duke, Bill Evans, Monk... Miles to me was more genius as personality in musica --- arranger of musical life maybe... he had fantastic sense of form, musical stream, musical integrity and leadership... he was genius.
I think Django had sparkle of genius but not Wes or Jim Hall - again it does not make them lower from my point of view - maybe even quite the opposite.. - they were great human gifts for me...

In general people seem to drop word 'genius' too often... as well as 'great' - everyone seems to be great.

They often use 'genius' as an equivelent os 'something I like very very much'

[christianm77]

Oh - that reminds me:

Thing is this still sounds better to me than Metheny’s trumpet synth tone.

[christianm77]

I'm not PM's biggest fan but I have to disagree with you here. I've seen him play live and have heard many recorded solos from the guy. His style is different, but just try to play Bright Size Life with the fire and accuracy that he did. His unique slidy vibrato thing ain't easy either. Most players wouldn't bother to master it, it has become part of his signature.

When I heard him play live he did a Guitar/Drum duet where he burned his ass off, kind of like McLaughlin likes to do with his super baddie drummers. Pat used hammer-ons and pull-offs where John would use pick strokes, but he did/does it masterfully and with great fire and zeal. He knows exactly what he's doing and can really go when he wants to! He was super fast, liked greased lighting. I'd never heard him play like that before, and was surprised.

And regarding an "improv play off" with Kenny G... well, people tend to be better at what they do, as opposed to not do. If one spends his life playing jazz changes and the other doesn't, why would we think that the latter would fare as well, or even better?

Such a presumption seems baseless.

I remember hearing one of these probably Coltrane inspired duets live and being blown away. I’d happily listen to gig of that. But presumably moat listeners would prefer Imaginary Day.

Kenny CAN play (I am reliably informed) - but the idea of him putting some serious fuck you jazz of that kind into one of his live shows is entirely risible.

Pat has always sought to bridge the jazz world with a wider listenership and seems to have done so without compromise to his musical expression. The fact I’m not a huge fan of this material doesn’t alter that.

Kenny on the other hand does his thing.

[Gabor]

He can explain what it is he is trying to achieve with music very clearly whereas many musicians don't fare so well in interviews.

I think this is not indicator of music quality and surely not indicator of art. This means PM is an intelligent man, who exactly knows his goals, and communicates according. I think it is not explainable why Bill Evans was so great, also Miles (50s, 60s). But the best in end: there is no need of explanation, even better just listen. (when trying to learn and analyze a solo that is an other thing.).

[Gabor]

What is really accomplished by trashing other musicians? Shouldn't we be supporting each other? Pat trashed Larry Corryell's CD where Larry overdubbed playing with Wes who he worshipped. Larry thought he was paying homage to a hero and was deeply hurt by Pat's remarks. Metheny has a reputation for this sort of thing. I think it's shameful.

Just for the facts: PM was not so harsh.

It is far from trashing It is actually more than dozen extremely admiring sentence on LC, and only one very polite, conditional thought about what we should not do in general. I am not into PM, but I really think the shame on LC and not on PM this case. Maybe I am hypersensitive to this, but making one himself/herself on the spotlight (and optionally making money) on other's achievements, values, death or tragedy is definitely a no do. The whole world can remember and admire Wes legacy even in daily basis by listening Wes recordings. No one can think he/her playing over Wes is necessary for this. The overdubbing thing is particularly sensitive, because overdubbed artist has no chance to agree or disagree...

Here is PMs opinion on LC from PMs official web site:
(Pat Metheny : Question & Answer)

"hi mark,

thanks for writing in. larry will always, ALWAYS remain an early favorite for me - his playing with gary burton in the 60's revolutionized everything, and in particular the way he played on the record "gary burton quartet live in concert" from carnegie hall which contains some of the most creative and important jazz guitar playing of all time.

so, yes, i was shocked and disappointed when i heard that it was larry (when i heard it on the radio i didn't even recognize it as him) that had made that version of wes's "bumpin on sunset" - which actually happens to be one of my favorite wes tracks ever so i was extra bugged by it.

but whatever, i know larry is just trying to do good things with music, maybe a producer thought it was a good idea or something - but we are in an era that just because we CAN do some things technologically speaking that maybe we couldn't before - it doesn't mean that it is really a good idea to go ahead and do them. i've made a few goofs in this area of implementing new technology and in the excitement of it found that it wasn't a great solution to a musical problem myself over the years, quite honestly.

i have not really heard larry that much over the past years, but i know that wertico plays with him once a year or so and always comes back saying how much he enjoys it. there is no doubt in my mind that larry is playing fantastic and i would love to hear him again soon. good luck with your music!

best from pat m."

[ronjazz]

Call me shallow, and I'm ok with that, but he should've cut that hair and ditched the Charlie Brown shirts 30-35 years ago.

Yes, it really hurt his career.

[yebdox]

Pat and a lot of other people are down on Kenny G for having had the presumptuousness to overdub himself on Louis Armstrong's classic "What A Wonderful World". In this interview, Pat refers to the track as "musical necrophilia."

As for whether Kenny can play jazz for real, yes, he can, and it has nothing to do with circular breathing. Listen to any of the early Jeff Lorber Fusion releases for Kenny Gorelick's great sax playing before he adopted the Musak-ified musical persona of "Kenny G." Despite Pat's scathing critique, I really like Kenny Gorelick's playing on the early Lorber Fusion stuff; it's soulful and hip. The Kenny G discs I can do without.

Here are some of my favorite early Lorber tunes, in no particular order.

There's no sax solo on Spur of the Moment, but the vid shows album credits with KG's real name, plus he co-wrote this song with Lorber and Danny Wilson:

Kenny's kinda Coltrane-esque solo starts at 3:25:

Kenny's solo at 1:35 - melodic, nice phrasing, a different vibe than what's in the previous tune; i.e. he plays to fit the song. Which is why I can't fathom how he went from stuff like this to pablum like Songbird... I guess money talks.

Sax solo starts at 3:27 - not too flashy, not dull either, fits the laid-back vibe of the tune.

Kenny's nice flute solo starts at 2:39.

Always love Jeff Lorber.... was a local star in Portland in the late 70’s when I started grad school, tons of great live music at the time. I agree, Gorelick fit the bill nicely for what they were doing. And, I’m not interested in his own material, either. But, a great circle of musicians from that era in Portland, great memories.

[lawson-stone]

I hope you don't mean it's a wig...

OMG what if it is IS a wig... and he's covering up a totally bald head! Never saw that one coming...

[greveost]

I am a huge fan of the old jazz greats: Django, Wes, Grant Green, Joe Pass, Pat Martino, Jim Hall, George Benson, Kenny Burrel, Barney Kessel etc. They all have that funky, bluesy, jazzy guitar style that I love. However, for some reason I just can't get into Pat Metheny. I hear everybody talk about how great he is. And I really want to like it. So far the only thing I really liked is his version of ATTYA with Jim Hall.

All his other stuff feels so corny to me. Like the smooth jazz you hear in the mall/the weather channel or that new agey stuff. Especially his synth guitar.

Also, as a person Pat Metheny seems quite pretentious. Of course what Kenny G did is not cool. But as I said, I think his music sounds almost as corny as Kenny G's stuff.

Will the jazz police arrest me? Am I tone deaf? Am I not smart/deep enough? Will I get the banhammer?

Check out Bright Size Life, it is his best, by far. And then Rejoicing.

Fantastic albums with some killer rhythm sections as well.

[starjasmine]

Thing is this still sounds better to me than Metheny’s trumpet synth tone.

I neither love nor hate PM's mainstream jazz tone but that synth reminds me of a dental drill!!!

[Jazzism]

Just for the facts: PM was not so harsh.

It is far from trashing It is actually more than dozen extremely admiring sentence on LC, and only one very polite, conditional thought about what we should not do in general. I am not into PM, but I really think the shame on LC and not on PM this case. Maybe I am hypersensitive to this, but making one himself/herself on the spotlight (and optionally making money) on other's achievements, values, death or tragedy is definitely a no do. The whole world can remember and admire Wes legacy even in daily basis by listening Wes recordings. No one can think he/her playing over Wes is necessary for this. The overdubbing thing is particularly sensitive, because overdubbed artist has no chance to agree or disagree...

Here is PMs opinion on LC from PMs official web site:
(Pat Metheny : Question & Answer)

Indeed, seems some people are not quite getting it. If you want to pay respect to someone you admire record your own version with you playing on it. Don’t take an artists original recordings and put your own shit on there. It’s disrespectful. Which was the crux of Methenys rant. In effect you are saying I’m as good as Wes / Armstrong and I deserve to be heard in the same context. In both cases with Coryell and gorelick, however good anyone thinks they are, I don’t think anyone would dispute that they are not peers or equals of Wes or Satchmo. In fact Metheny does draw a distinction with tony Bennett and Billie holiday, more or less saying, even though he found it odd to do it, at least Bennett and Holiday were acknowledged as the best in their field. Can you say the same for coryell and gorelick?

[Robertkoa]

I think PM ( for me ) probably deserves the Genius title because he was asked to be on the UM Jazz Faculty at a very young age .Really understood Music in general.But had to work really hard on the Guitar itself to play fluidly etc. I can relate to that part ... I think it's cool that he has made a lot of money playing Guitar- probably the rarest 'skill ' of all...When you hear me play - you crabs in the basket won't even believe it's me-

Robert Scorpio Preston - it's harmonically expanded R&B , and the PianoGuitar is just complex fingerpicking with a little more groove.

Most Jazz Guitarists will have trouble with the tight time and the chops ...and the larger wide stretch chords ....

[wintermoon]

"think PM ( for me ) probably deserves the Genius title because he was asked to be on the UM Jazz Faculty at a very young age ."

That constitutes genius?
Um, ok