Allan Holdsworth - Good? or just Difficult?

**Reg** · 08-07-2011, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by NSJ

Reg, could you elaborate concretely what you mean by equating something more musical with "how we balance what we chose to use", either generally or in a jazz context? Are you talking about specific rhythmic, harmonic or melodic components and devices? Something else? Thanks.

Hey NSJ... I'll try... I guess there could be a difference to "more musical" depending on reference to style... and obviously can become very subjective, and depending on how many, as you termed components and devices we're aware of and in the context... could greatly influence the general interpretation of, in this example playing music.
But simply... if we agree on a specific numbers of methods... of making choices about components... being employed making this music and how they imply or reflect the context... the balance of those many aspects would reflect how I would define being "more musical". Obviously that can become fairly complex, but if we took a group of people we would have a general choice, and the better qualified, more aware of subject, the group was the more reflective the definition would be. Skipping all the BS... I am fairly aware of musical components and am a fairly accomplished player... I've put in way too many years being involved in music... I trust my instincts, and don't always go through this process... but I can. But I am also always listening and looking for more... I'm sure I always will. Sorry I can't be more concrete, but as your probable aware, it's a process and there many details... But if you make a list or collection of the details , I'll gladly make a choice based on info... Which would reflect my likes as well as my expertise...Reg

**NSJ** · 08-07-2011, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Hey NSJ... I'll try... I guess there could be a difference to "more musical" depending on reference to style... and obviously can become very subjective, and depending on how many, as you termed components and devices we're aware of and in the context... could greatly influence the general interpretation of, in this example playing music.
But simply... if we agree on a specific numbers of methods... of making choices about components... being employed making this music and how they imply or reflect the context... the balance of those many aspects would reflect how I would define being "more musical". Obviously that can become fairly complex, but if we took a group of people we would have a general choice, and the better qualified, more aware of subject, the group was the more reflective the definition would be. Skipping all the BS... I am fairly aware of musical components and am a fairly accomplished player... I've put in way too many years being involved in music... I trust my instincts, and don't always go through this process... but I can. But I am also always listening and looking for more... I'm sure I always will. Sorry I can't be more concrete, but as your probable aware, it's a process and there many details... But if you make a list or collection of the details , I'll gladly make a choice based on info... Which would reflect my likes as well as my expertise...Reg

Thanks, Reg. I don't really have a list of details, but I just think, on a more general level, greater technical command of the instrument, coupled with a greater knowledge of the music and its requirements, will allow a more seasoned player to be able to use their taste and discretion to a far greater extent.

I guess it means that the masters are not thinking about "which chord, which scale, which motif"; neither are they fumbling or stumbling over fingerings. No, they are just "playing". They are reached a point where they have already fully internalized the grammar and vocabulary and are just conversing.

I hope to reach that summit one day.

**jster** · 08-21-2011, 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

I just noticed: Bill Murray spoon feeds JM to the crowd but then says he is "most famous for his work with the Mahi Mahi Orchestra"! WTF?

I agree that Yoshi's show was kinda lifeless. I was going to go but was out of town. I think none of them were particularly into the material. Willie Nelson can write 3000 songs. Metheny must have a zillion albums by now. Sco cranks them out. I think I'm listening to his latest and then I find I'm about 6 CD's behind. What's AH's excuse!? I'm a big fan, but I think too many top musicians are really slackers. What's Benson doing these days? Playing golf? Jeeze. It's called "playing" music. It's already supposed to be fun. Maybe get a blister on your little finger...

As for the comparison with JM, in fairness to AH, I think he'd step it up a couple of notches if he were going on in front of tens of thousands like that.

**Vihar** · 08-21-2011, 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by jster

I just noticed: Bill Murray spoon feeds JM to the crowd but then says he is "most famous for his work with the Mahi Mahi Orchestra"! WTF?

I agree that Yoshi's show was kinda lifeless. I was going to go but was out of town. I think none of them were particularly into the material. Willie Nelson can write 3000 songs. Metheny must have a zillion albums by now. Sco cranks them out. I think I'm listening to his latest and then I find I'm about 6 CD's behind. What's AH's excuse!? I'm a big fan, but I think too many top musicians are really slackers. What's Benson doing these days? Playing golf? Jeeze. It's called "playing" music. It's already supposed to be fun. Maybe get a blister on your little finger...

As for the comparison with JM, in fairness to AH, I think he'd step it up a couple of notches if he were going on in front of tens of thousands like that.

LOL! You're a comedian.

**jster** · 08-21-2011, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by Vihar

Well I hope you can recreate that style without booze too, cause I've honestly found it hilarious.

It's a mild winter here. Some snow but no copulating reindeers in the streets.

Sure I don't need the booze. I only drink once every three months. But usually finish the bottle. Hehe. I try to behave though on this forum. I may need help with the whole tone scale someday. Not sure why anybody would ever pay for lessons now that there are forums like these. I really appreciate all the help I get and half expect to receive a bill in the mail. I let loose on some other forums.

I may have to come check it out. I'm tooling around the Baltic but yesterday already felt like winter. Not looking forward to that.

**jzucker** · 08-21-2011, 06:18 PM

any line of logic that defines holdsworth as anything less than a revolutionary genius is flawed IMO. This is why increasingly, I feel that forums are useless

**Philco** · 08-21-2011, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

any line of logic that defines holdsworth as anything less than a revolutionary genius is flawed IMO. This is why increasingly, I feel that forums are useless

He needs to play Stella or Autumn Leaves. I mean.................we need some serious 2 5 1 action

He's working on an album right now actually, and he will tour it.

**Philco** · 08-21-2011, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

One... aspect of playing jazz is improve... I personally thought that show was pretty lifeless... and most of the developments sounded pre-arranged. Sounds and looks like a rehearsal. Sorry to be negative... and I dig Pasqua... like Nord Stage Ex sounds. Check out This JM video, another British player...not the best, but his methods of development are much more musical. What makes thing musical is how we balance what we choose to use to make what ever style of music were playing.

It's kind of cool JM's usual drummer, Gary Husband is playing Keyboards, and that's Vinni Colainta on drums, played with Jeff Beck. Bassist Jimmy Garrison's son Matt on bass.

Nice to see John trying to get the inside out. Alan usually keeps it in.
You can feel John trying to drag the rest of the band with him. He get's there a few times.
The fire still burns in the man. Personally I hope he never plays acoustic again. He needs to face that electric beast and wrench the heart out of it. At least that is what I would selfishly like to see and what drew me to him all those years ago.

Now to get him back to the headspace where he wrote the Mahavishnu body of work (or co wrote more like it).
Not to relive the past but to try and capture what he started chasing. ( I don't mean the drugs he was doing)

That music in the clip was a sleepy molasses.
He almost got out of it.

**Gearhead** · 08-22-2011, 06:23 AM

Don't get me wrong guys, I highly respect John McLaughlin. I used to listen to him a lot a couple of decades ago. I still love his acoustic work (trio with Zakir) and both this Mahavishnu Orchestras but I think that his electric tone sucks big time IMHO, I just can't stand to listen to it, harsh and nasty without being dirty..

Some of you feel the same way?

**Buster Loaf** · 08-22-2011, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

any line of logic that defines holdsworth as anything less than a revolutionary genius is flawed IMO. This is why increasingly, I feel that forums are useless

So then, soon you shall leave us, to return under a rock?

**jzucker** · 08-22-2011, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Buster Loaf

So then, soon you shall leave us, to return under a rock?

The only rocks are the ones between your ears.

**Buster Loaf** · 08-22-2011, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

The only rocks are the ones between your ears.

lol

**jzucker** · 08-22-2011, 02:48 PM

Holdsworth is a great play with great linear command of the harmonic spectrum. He tends to play in key centers but he certainly is not an "inside" player in the same way as Al Dimiola. He's not rooted in bop playing like gambale or henderson or even mclaughlin but his command of legato and his ability to play very wide intervals and make them sound completely relaxed and grooving as well as his ability to move in and out of the key centers he's playing over makes him a must-study for anyone interested in post-geezer jazz guitar.

I don't know any other player who can do what he does though there are sound guys like Tim Miller who combine holdsworth techniques with more traditional bop chord changes...

Regarding McLaughlin, he's definitely got more of a bop language under his belt but what bothers me with him is that despite all the study of indian rhythms and odd meters, he still plays almost exclusively on the beat. Still a great player though.

**brwnhornet59** · 08-22-2011, 03:10 PM

I'm with you Jack, when it come's to Allan. He is unique and a must hear voice. He has blown me away from the beginning.

Agreed about John as well. I am not the biggest fan of his electric work. I don't care for his tone either. But I love John. His best work,IMHO, as I have stated many times, is with Shakti. Loved some of the Miles stuff he did live as well. Others not so much.

**jzucker** · 08-22-2011, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

I'm with you Jack, when it come's to Allan. He is unique and a must hear voice. He has blown me away from the beginning.

Agreed about John as well. I am not the biggest fan of his electric work. I don't care for his tone either. But I love John. His best work,IMHO, as I have stated many times, is with Shakti. Loved some of the Miles stuff he did live as well. Others not so much.

I think these are his best 2 cds. However, the time feel always feels rushed to me.

Amazon.com: Live at the Royal Festival Hall: John Mclaughlin: Music

Amazon.com: Que Alegria: John Mclaughlin: Music

**brwnhornet59** · 08-22-2011, 04:38 PM

I have heard the first one. The latter I will look into. T/y!

**Double 07** · 08-22-2011, 05:07 PM

Holdsworth is a fantastic player as are all of the cat's who have been mentioned in this thread. Interesting chord voicings for sure. The guy must have some unusually large hands or something though. He's using 5 fret stretches or more on a regular basis to get those voicings. Sorry but that makes my hand start to hurt so I'll stick to my 3 or 4 fret voicings thank you lol. Al D got mentioned in this thread he is a monster chops wise IMO.

**jzucker** · 08-22-2011, 05:17 PM

ask dimiola to play countdown...

**jzucker** · 08-22-2011, 05:44 PM

by the way, I love Dimiola. I think he sounded better with RTF than gambale does even though I like Gambale's soloing much better. I was just giving an example of judging a player by a limited vertical slice of his playing.

**Buster Loaf** · 08-22-2011, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

by the way, I love Dimiola.

Oh phew! what a relief, Al will be so happy!

**jzucker** · 08-22-2011, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by Buster Loaf

Oh phew! what a relief, Al will be so happy!

Do you contribute anything positive or is it all sarcastic drivel ?

Btw, do you play guitar?

**jster** · 08-23-2011, 07:47 AM

This guy has a lot of transcriptions including a bunch of AH.

Pick's Place-www.lucaspickford.com

Tokyo Dream is AH's signature tune. Maybe someone wants to do an analysis?

A few pages back somebody explained that Allan's lines are just over the key centers rather than over the changes. Could you really play seamless lines like that over the changes? The two things that really turned me on about Allan were the otherworldly quality of it all (for example, I can't think of another tune that remotely resembles Tokyo Dream) and the long seamless lines. In Low Levels High Stakes, Allan's solo just seems like one long thought. It just seems that if he had to stop to emphasize chord tones it would lose its seamless quality and at best sound completely contrived and at worst fall to pieces.

I'm not a pro like you guys, but as a fan, I like seamless lines. I don't like guitar players who sound like they are stuttering. Here's a line. OK, lemme think. Here's another line. OK, gimme a second. OK, here. Etc. I grew up on Coltrane, Benson, Metheny and they all play pretty seamless. Then when I hear Allan's stuff, it blew me a way because it was the most seamless stuff I'd ever heard.

So my question would be this. Suppose just as an experiment, could one play over changes that way?

**Vihar** · 08-23-2011, 07:57 AM

Most of the time he plays his own unique/weird sounding changes though, so it's really hard to predict how he would sound over a somewhat more traditional harmonic pattern.

**jzucker** · 08-23-2011, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Vihar

Most of the time he plays his own unique/weird sounding changes though, so it's really hard to predict how he would sound over a somewhat more traditional harmonic pattern.

He recorded a CD of standards doing countdown, etc...