Allan Holdsworth - Good? or just Difficult?

**Vihar** · 08-23-2011, 09:46 AM

Right, the None Too Soon album. He does sound like himself on that one too.

**jzucker** · 08-23-2011, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Soco

He even plays Django's Nuages and Bill Evans' Very early on that album.
I love Holdsworth, but that is not one of his best album in my opinion.

Agreed. On this cd and particularly on countdown, you can hear that he is playing over key centers and not explicitly playing over the changes.

**NSJ** · 08-23-2011, 10:52 AM

This is what John MClaughlin said about Alan--

"if I knew what you were doing, I would steal ALL of it! But the problem is, I don't know what you're doing!"

**JensL** · 08-23-2011, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Soco

He even plays Django's Nuages and Bill Evans' Very early on that album.
I love Holdsworth, but that is not one of his best album in my opinion.

I agree with you, it's not my favourite. But what I don't like about it is more the sound of the rhythm section than Allan. They play really well but they are really not the guys for jazz that is this close to straight ahead stuff.

But on the other hand it is great to hear Allan play on standard progressions.

I also found myself wondering if it is recorded with an electric piano?

Jens

**GreyJazz90** · 08-23-2011, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Vihar

Right, the None Too Soon album. He does sound like himself on that one too.

Thats a good thing...

**Spirit59** · 08-26-2011, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by JensL

I agree with you, it's not my favourite. But what I don't like about it is more the sound of the rhythm section than Allan. They play really well but they are really not the guys for jazz that is this close to straight ahead stuff.

But on the other hand it is great to hear Allan play on standard progressions.

I also found myself wondering if it is recorded with an electric piano?

Jens

Yeah, actually the piano was a Roland sampled piano, which was *overdubbed* by Gordon Beck, and of course, all Allan's solo's & guitar parts were overdubbed as well. I'm not even sure that Covington & Willis played together on that album - not exactly a great way to record a straight ahead type "session".....

**JensL** · 08-26-2011, 02:44 AM

Funny way to make a jazz record.

Do you know if he always works like that? Sixteen men of Tain has overdubs, but someparts sound more live in terms of interaction between drums and guitar.

Jens

**jzucker** · 08-27-2011, 09:15 AM

what makes you think he was trying to make a traditional jazz record? If he was, why didn't he use an archtop?

**JensL** · 08-27-2011, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

what makes you think he was trying to make a traditional jazz record? If he was, why didn't he use an archtop?

The interpretation and choice of tunes suggests (to me anyway) a straight ahead jazz cd.

The way I see jazz and what I feel is important parts of the music, recording a version like that of "How Deep is the ocean" in layers, is pretty far out.

With or without a hollow guitar.

Jens

**JensL** · 08-27-2011, 06:03 PM

I am not saying it is wrong, he can record "all of me" with loops of metal sounds, a recorder, a bagpipe and a banjo if he feels like it (you too, should you feel so inclined)

I was just surprised that he'd choose that way of recording for that kind of music, and I was asking if Sixteen men of tain was the same?

Jens

**brwnhornet59** · 08-27-2011, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by JensL

I am not saying it is wrong, he can record "all of me" with loops of metal sounds, a recorder, a bagpipe and a banjo if he feels like it (you too, should you feel so inclined)

I was just surprised that he'd choose that way of recording for that kind of music, and I was asking if Sixteen men of tain was the same?

Jens

You forgot the harmonica and kazoo!

**gitarsam312** · 09-10-2011, 01:46 PM

Allan's best playing that I can recall is on Bill Bruford's "One Of A Kind" album. Glad that was mentioned a few times in this interesting thread.

**jster** · 09-10-2011, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by JensL

I was asking if Sixteen men of tain was the same?

Jens

I listened to that record a lot because I left it in the car for a long time. It always struck me as by far his most intimate record. Really still his last regular studio album. It always seemed pretty live to me. But then he has his clean tone and his solo tone and so maybe he just puts down the changes with his clean tone by himself and then brings in everybody to play along with that track and solos over it with the band live? I dunno. Seems to vary from track to track. You guys are the pros. How much overdubbing is he doing? You can find most of the tracks on youtube.

**Soco** · 09-13-2011, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by jster

I listened to that record a lot because I left it in the car for a long time. It always struck me as by far his most intimate record. Really still his last regular studio album. It always seemed pretty live to me. But then he has his clean tone and his solo tone and so maybe he just puts down the changes with his clean tone by himself and then brings in everybody to play along with that track and solos over it with the band live? I dunno. Seems to vary from track to track. You guys are the pros. How much overdubbing is he doing? You can find most of the tracks on youtube.

Not sure how he recorded it, but it is probably his best solo album.
I think the upright bass(except for one track I think) by Dave Carpenter who sadly passed a way really gives the whole album a more organic feel.
Also I love the addition of trumpet on one of the songs is great.
The duo with Allan and Gary Novak is great too. overall great album.

**markf** · 09-14-2011, 06:02 PM

I just got 16 men of tain, very very nice album.

tone....... wow.

**eddy b.** · 02-16-2012, 10:15 AM

All Night Wrong is the one for me Mind Boggling!!!!

**AmundLauritzen** · 02-16-2012, 10:58 AM

I think he is one of the most unique and fascinating guitarists of all time. His voice on the instrument is constantly changing, but still he has always been one of those players who you can recognize instantly just from hearing half a bar of playing.

To me he is a multi-faceted artist. His personality when playing chordal stuff versus single lines is so different. His chord playing has an eerie, but beautiful feel to it. Creating wide open sonic landscapes.

Some times, his single line playing can get intense. But I'd rather have him play what he hears than have to listen to someone who is trying to conform to the audiences expectations. An artist can't please everyone, and AH is an acquired taste.

I can't wrap my head around the things he does on the instrument. Weird concepts of harmony, but it always works. Like Pat Martino, he has a personal way of organizing his concepts and coincidentally both are unique players whose voices can be recognized instantly.

**brwnhornet59** · 02-16-2012, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen

I think he is one of the most unique and fascinating guitarists of all time. you can recognize instantly just from hearing half a bar of playing.

His chord playing has an eerie, but beautiful feel to it. Creating wide open sonic landscapes.

I can't wrap my head around the things he does on the instrument. Weird concepts of harmony, but it always works. Like Pat Martino, he has a personal way of organizing his concepts and coincidentally both are unique players whose voices can be recognized instantly.

Yeah, Allen is a great player and an acquired taste as you said. He certainly has paid his dues. I started listening to him in the late 70's and have been a fan ever since.

His quartal approach is light years beyond most guys. His hands are so big he can grab those incredible inversions with ease.

**Pat Clare** · 02-16-2012, 04:08 PM

He's an amazing player, although for me, I'd like to see if there's a way he can make his axe sound like a guitar, instead of an electric piano / synth.

**AmundLauritzen** · 02-16-2012, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by Pat Clare

He's an amazing player, although for me, I'd like to see if there's a way he can make his axe sound like a guitar, instead of an electric piano / synth.

I don't think that's very likely. Allan has stated that he really wanted to play a horn, but had to settle for a guitar and that he doesn't particularly care for the tone of the guitar as it's supposed to sound(for his own playing. He admires many guitarists though).
But I still agree with you. It would be great to hear how he would play with that kind of tone.

**Pat Clare** · 02-16-2012, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by AmundLauritzen

I don't think that's very likely. Allan has stated that he really wanted to play a horn, but had to settle for a guitar and that he doesn't particularly care for the tone of the guitar as it's supposed to sound(for his own playing. He admires many guitarists though).
But I still agree with you. It would be great to hear how he would play with that kind of tone.

I've heard a lot of guitar players that want to sound like a horn, but I've don't hear horn players using all of the gadgets that guitar players are using. I try to phrase my lines like a horn, but like a horn player use my intruments natural sound.

**mattymel** · 02-16-2012, 06:07 PM

yes, as much as i respect and WANT to like him, i just can't get past the sound. its like stanley jordan in a way. impressive and great improvising, but just doesn't SOUND good.

**brwnhornet59** · 02-16-2012, 06:53 PM

I prefer Allan's guitar sound over his synth axe. But remember he plays a lot as guitar as well. Like Metheny, I hate his synth sound, but he as well plays a lot of tunes with his guitar. With that being said, I wish they would both play more guitar!

**ES350** · 02-19-2012, 09:47 PM

I really prefer his playing around the mid-late 70's; late Soft Machine and Tony Williams stuff. No synth, just blowing...although often he is just running legato licks all over the place, sometimes he just really nails it.