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I found this philosophical musing on the difference between complex and complicated to be entertaining:
Complex Vs. Complicated A Philosopher's Blog
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08-03-2011 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by FatJeff
I like it!
Complexity is usually an illusion created by layers of simple well integrated concepts.
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Yes... we all have somewhat limited cognitive abilities...some more limited than others obviously, especially when trying to understand lots of new information. I was simply trying to remind Originally Posted by Buster Loaf
jster that in this discussion, complex harmonic concepts are still only dealing with notes, which are not complicated... as Jazzaluk pointed out.
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Jster... Yes... that is one detail that would create harmonic complexity... and if you add more levels of understanding and control of the harmony,( chords and their influences), it could become even more complex. Chord patterns can have multiple options as to source and how resolve, and even the resolution method... Then what happens when you have complex harmonic concepts... there is the balance factor.... how all those methods etc.... works together and with the context, (the tune, and where or how it's being played). Originally Posted by jster
It can becomes very nuts and bolts... once your aware of all the parts and concepts..... Non-complicated-complexity...
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So what happens if you suddenly start playing tunes on the 2nd chord of them and then alter the 3rd one to make it sound like it would actually be the starting chord, while deliberately staying atonal with the melody line? How would you approach that problem in relation to the above mentioned complexity anomaly, Reg?
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I felt I should look at the initial thread start, to get an idea how the conversation has developed. Holdsworth is of discussion because his music is not for everyone. It is kind of guitar music, well not like any other guitar music that isn't imitating him, but essentially music for musicians. His music may not be very complex harmonically compared to much of classical music but in his genre (fusion) it is complex and personal and very much unique. I believe he could play in any ensemble, has an incredible ear and a burning technique on the guitar.
But, for all the time I have spent listening (mostly years ago), I can't really recall a tune right now. It is complex in that most of the progressions and melodies don't move as you would naturally expect, but great melodies and harmonies they mostly aren't. I can recall entire passages of Stravinsky or Bartok, but Allan's stuff ain't sticking to my ribs. That is not entirely a strike against him, but it does seem he won't let the music tell him what to do, he must push and pull at the nature of the material to reveal the inner complexity available.
I can't pull of this stuff, can't play it, compose it, transcribe it, I can't get a fix on what it is he does when he goes ballistic. I think this is the deal, nobody really does a good Allan Holdsworth schtick as good as Allan, they generally sound like a trained chimp making Allanesque lines with the Allanesque tones. Not unique and singular, but merely imitating, i don't feel Allan imitating anything.
If there is any player who can uncork all this angular legato madness, without cessation and never sound like a wind-up toy, please point me in that direction, i am ready to hear more incredible guitar work.
Also, Scofield is not an A-list guitarist by accident. He ain't that pretty so it must be the guitar playing. His timing may differ from straight swing eighths, but that shit is BORING anyway. He is one of the bright lights that lead me to practice harder and express more with this very difficult instrument. He swings like nobody else, so he is imitated for this feeling and his unique pick hand and unique bending. He knows what he is doing, never plays garbage and is still an A-list guitarist. If he plays behind the beat, then that's where he hears the damn lick, he didn't get sleepy and fall behind.
Great conversations here, and some really great info on theory etc. I am glad to be a new member here, please don't take my rant the wrong way, i just fall into the age group that really likes both these players very well. I accept that a good analysis of holdworth may surprise me, as i am no expert musician, but i feel his music is more complex than my own. How good it is, is still a good question.
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Great post. Originally Posted by cubistguitar
Maybe Allan likes to use so many keys in one song so he can play random notes in time and they'll still fit. lol jk
It's like he took up Coltrane's "Giant Steps" concept and built a career on it.
About the only tune that "sticks to my ribs" is "Road Games". Which sounds like an Alan Parsons Project tune.
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^ Ok that is a good song, or at least better than his normal fare.
There was almost some real excitement in that one.
I should mention i was very impressed with the recent DVD with Allan and Alan Pasqua at Yoshi's. I think Allan was really pushing himself in this setting, He really likes jamming with Pasqua, he almost drops a couple of notes because he is trying to pull off something he looks sorta surprised about himself. He usually seems more emotionally aloof.
He is so unique i hate to not make sure you know how much i think of his playing. I would crap my pants if i saw him in the front row if i was playing, I just think it is a good question if this stuff is actually good music. I think its OK music, with great players. I think I really prefer great music, by whatever level player it takes.
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Quite simply... but what might be more interesting would be YOU making a video of you playing an example or what you believe your talking about... Originally Posted by Vihar
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Maybe it would be more interesting, but if I knew the answer myself I wouldn't have asked a person with such a vast knowledge like you Reg. Or perhaps you didn't quite understand the question?
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Allan, is incredible. One of the most unique guitarists out there. He embodies my ideal of developing my own approach and not caving in to the pressure of academic bullshit(which is ever present at the music school I attend). I also think people go too crazy trying to analyze his music. You can't, he doesn't think in terms of cadences and text book theory, he plays what he hears and creates his own approach.
Side note about harmony: you can play whatever note you'd like over any sort of harmony, it is just to our western-influenced ears that certain notes are "wrong." The most important and fundamental elements in music are rhythm and melody. Those came way before harmony ever existed. We close off so many possibilities because we get boxed into these 8 note scales that we have been indoctrinated into using. A good example of a forward thinking guitarist that uses all the possibilities is Bryan Baker. If only more people were as brave as him and Allan...
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GreyJazz 90
While I agree with the music is what it's all about, when we talk about music we need all the BS. And generally the more BS your aware of the better your able to talk, and also play what were talking about. Usually at some point you get over the Divine influence and magic thing, and it becomes as I've said before... nuts and bolts... All the western rules as you mentioned do have a place... there are generally tendencies in western music, and Jazz is right in the middle. How we handle those tendencies, whether natural or derived, is a huge part of what defines a style of music. Most of what we believe to be forward thinking has roots from the past... but it's fairly difficult to be aware of what you don't know or have not been exposed to. I'm not trying to imply you need to know everything to know anything... but it's generally not simply being brave. This is a very complex discussion, involving more than we're aware of most of the time... but one that always needs to be gone through.... it doesn't need to be that personal...Reg
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If your design was to start or delay the entrance of your melodic playing, there are many traditional and jazz orientated methods, (techniques), for achieving this process. There are lots of basic form designs which have contrapuntal devices that control entrances as well as the same principles applied to harmonic practice... If you get into simi-modern composition there are even more devices to achieve the desired effect. The atonal effect choice has basically unlimited options to explain, again all are fairly simple ideas, but when you begin to combined with a method or control context...can becomes quite complex. The more layers of design used to achieve the effect or final composition or actual playing usually contributes to the level of complexity. With out more details I really can't be that specific... Originally Posted by Vihar
As to how I would approach... best I can...Reg
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I think these short clips from the Yoshi's DVD sound pretty awesome. I think Allan is almost bored with his own thing and is really pushing for a better mixture of lines and contrast. I hear some lines here i have never heard from Allan before.
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Alan Pasqua's lead here is quite good. Allan is his usual heroic self, love the slides and pinch harmonics in this one.
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That's one of the sweeter sounding tunes as well. Originally Posted by cubistguitar
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Yeah, I dug it!!!!
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I really like that one as well - it reminded me of when I first got into Holdsworth.
This is probably just about the way you choose to define things, but is this music jazz? (the old question) - personally I tend to lump it in with jazz, but maybe I have a rather broad definition. It could easily be called fusion - and fusion seems to cover a wide range these days. Someone like Scofield is often called both a fusion and jazz player. Holdsworth is maybe further from what people normally would think of as jazz. At what point does fusion stop being jazz? if indeed it does stop being jazz! I'm just rambling here...
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I understand your concern Meggy - for me, if it's improvised I can call it jazz on a clear day - even if it's just bluegrass. lol
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His line's are as good as any jazz lines I have ever heard. IMHO
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Oh absolutely, I do agree - there is real depth to what he does. Such a compelling musician. It's down to personal taste I guess, but even when I knew nothing about how his music worked, what the chords were, etc. I still found I could relate to it perfectly well. For quite a while I wanted to play like him - I got out of that idea in the end Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
, nor did I ever get close anyway, but still this is just such great music IMO.
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"Jazz on a clear day" - I like that, cheers! Originally Posted by Vihar
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One... aspect of playing jazz is improve... I personally thought that show was pretty lifeless... and most of the developments sounded pre-arranged. Sounds and looks like a rehearsal. Sorry to be negative... and I dig Pasqua... like Nord Stage Ex sounds. Check out This JM video, another British player...not the best, but his methods of development are much more musical. What makes thing musical is how we balance what we choose to use to make what ever style of music were playing.
It's kind of cool JM's usual drummer, Gary Husband is playing Keyboards, and that's Vinni Colainta on drums, played with Jeff Beck. Bassist Jimmy Garrison's son Matt on bass.
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Reg, could you elaborate concretely what you mean by equating something more musical with "how we balance what we chose to use", either generally or in a jazz context? Are you talking about specific rhythmic, harmonic or melodic components and devices? Something else? Thanks. Originally Posted by Reg
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Wow, that was the best Jeff Beck imitation I've heard from McLaughlin so far. Originally Posted by Reg
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