John McLaughlin on the state of the music business

[docbop]

(Culturally) embracing stupidity would be something like choosing Football over Music and Arts...it happens all over this country every year.

For all the nonsense about Football and Sports in general being good for teaching a youth about teamwork, discipline, setting goals, camaraderie, etc...all can also be found in various school music programs, sans the violence. (Maybe I was lucky that in High School we had a very good Concert/Jazz/Marching Band that went on to compete nationally numerous times. Can't say the Football team ever made it past county....lol.)

I've never said you have to be a deep intellectual to play or even appreciate Jazz, but if you believe "Social significance is determined by what a significant portion of a society are doing" than maybe a culture that fosters at the very least a most basic intellectual curiosity (in anything) may fare a little bit better....(as it does in many other parts of the world.)

I for one believe that we are way too far down the road to turn back.... Enough of my monday morning rant

When young I worked in a record store for many years and its the same with Classical music beyond the basics. If it requires learning something about the music the masses aren't interested.

[grahambop]

his accent is kind of a blend of New Yorker and German, yet he is from England.
maybe from travelling all the time.

yes, in theory it's Yorkshire + New York, but I can't hear much Yorkshire in it.

[fumblefingers]

"The Mission of Jazz at Lincoln Center is to Entertain, Enrich and Expand a Global Community For Jazz Through Performance, Education and Advocacy."

It's better than nothing, but up until 2 or 3 years ago, Wynton was running it like a jazz museum to preserve jazz history, rather than to make jazz history. FWIW, it is the largest jazz organization on the planet.

Well I attended two Frisell shows and missed a McLaughlin show so caught him elsewhere. Those shows were the furthest thing from jazz cob-webby. (I think I just made up a term)

[fumblefingers]

That may or may not be true, but I'm sure he didn't embrace stupidity.....

Education doesn't = intelligence


and another view

It?s not just David Byrne and Radiohead: Spotify, Pandora and how streaming music kills jazz and classical - Salon.com

i agree that he didn't embrace stupidity, given that he was a genius and all...

but he DID embrace foolishness, as he exerted himself with a woman and some weed while still IN the hospital recovering from TB. But then I have done some foolish things as well, and not all in my youth.

we are way the heck off topic by now of course. Nothing like a Johnny Mac thread to get people going. As it should be I suppose..

one thing about big John. There is NO quit in that guy. When others would put the axe down after a few hours practice he would go thrice more. As Joey D. said "Go John!".

[MarkRhodes]

(Culturally) embracing stupidity would be something like choosing Football over Music and Arts...it happens all over this country every year.

Fact: many more kids in school (grade school and college) listen to music than play football or go to games. For that matter, most people playing football and going to games listen to music too. Music saturates society. People need no encouragement to seek out music. (It takes some effort to find a public place where no music is playing.) They just don't seek out jazz and there's no reason that they should.

Many people argued that if only education were offered to everyone, then most people would prefer the works of Aristotle, Homer, Shakespeare, Dante, Mozart, and Bach to transient popular works. They would relish learning for its own sake. And so on. There is a word for people who argued thus. That word is "wrong."

[Eric Rowland]

Thank you for the heads up on the video. I am a big fan of John and listened incessantly to the original Mahavishnu when I was starting my musical journey. His enthusiasm for our music is as strong as ever, as is obvious in the interview. I hope there is a future for jazz music in the US, I also hope all this 'other stuff' goes the way of disco, etc.

[MarkRhodes]

I also hope all this 'other stuff' goes the way of disco, etc.

Here is an hour-long documentary how about disco "changed the world."

>>>> Between 1969 and 1979 disco soundtracked gay liberation, foregrounded female desire in the age of feminism and led to the birth of modern club culture as we know it today, before taking the world by storm.<<<<

[djangoles]

Fact: many more kids in school (grade school and college) listen to music than play football or go to games. For that matter, most people playing football and going to games listen to music too. Music saturates society. People need no encouragement to seek out music. (It takes some effort to find a public place where no music is playing.) They just don't seek out jazz and there's no reason that they should.

Many people argued that if only education were offered to everyone, then most people would prefer the works of Aristotle, Homer, Shakespeare, Dante, Mozart, and Bach to transient popular works. They would relish learning for its own sake. And so on. There is a word for people who argued thus. That word is "wrong."

The fact is music and art will always get cut first when it comes to school programs....there is no debate in that. Then ask why?? As I said before, Does Football teach skills that are superior to music??
Whether the football team is listening to Metallica or something else to get amped up before a game is not really relevant

...and yes people do need encouragement sometimes to find out about other music. Even if it's in the form of mainstream entertainment.....The show Treme is good example of people being exposed to music that they may have never listened to in the past, but it is now being presented in a form that they can relate to on some level.

[MarkRhodes]

The fact is music and art will always get cut first when it comes to school programs....there is no debate in that. Then ask why?? As I said before, Does Football teach skills that are superior to music?? .

I don't object to the cutting of funding for music and art.

Further, I think people should be discouraged from majoring in music. If you're going to go to college, learn how to think, to read, to write well. (<<<It's a safe bet you weren't taught that in high school.) (Sadly, it's a safe bet most won't learn that in college either.)

Music should be played for the love of it. No one is owed an audience.

[richb2]

his accent is kind of a blend of New Yorker and German, yet he is from England.
maybe from travelling all the time.

He speaks just like the other 8M NYers.

[richb2]

I don't object to the cutting of funding for music and art.

Further, I think people should be discouraged from majoring in music. If you're going to go to college, learn how to think, to read, to write well. (<<<It's a safe bet you weren't taught that in high school.) (Sadly, it's a safe bet most won't learn that in college either.)

Music should be played for the love of it. No one is owed an audience.

Exactly Mark! Whenever I see a hot young musician I think to myself "there is a career disaster waiting to happen".

[MarkRhodes]

Exactly Mark! Whenever I see a hot young musician I think to myself "there is a career disaster waiting to happen".

I'm not sure what that means. I've seen several hot young musicians make nice careers for themselves. I say God bless them all, each and every one. I think many musicians have done well without going to music school.

Some have gone to music school and then fashioned nice careers too. I say God bless them all, each and every one. (Unfortunately, I think most who go to music school do not make much of a go of it, carry a lot of debt afterward, and remain uneducated beyond music. This seems to me a terrible situation.)

The goal of a life devoted to music should be playing music all one's life. If it is fame, big crowds, adulation, then one's goal was not a life devoted to music. There's nothing wrong with being poor and having time to play whatever one wants to.

[mr. beaumont]

I don't object to the cutting of funding for music and art.

Further, I think people should be discouraged from majoring in music. If you're going to go to college, learn how to think, to read, to write well. (<<<It's a safe bet you weren't taught that in high school.) (Sadly, it's a safe bet most won't learn that in college either.)

Music should be played for the love of it. No one is owed an audience.

Yuck. The "nobody is owed an audience" line again.

[NSJ]

Very relevant article for current jazz and classical recording artists today

It?s not just David Byrne and Radiohead: Spotify, Pandora and how streaming music kills jazz and classical - Salon.com

NB-this excludes most local cats I know or have met, who are great players struggling to find a restaurant gig. The whole "recording industry" was irrelevant to most of them decades ago

[djangoles]

I don't object to the cutting of funding for music and art.

Further, I think people should be discouraged from majoring in music. If you're going to go to college, learn how to think, to read, to write well. (<<<It's a safe bet you weren't taught that in high school.) (Sadly, it's a safe bet most won't learn that in college either.)

Music should be played for the love of it. No one is owed an audience.

I don't object either, as long as it's equal and across the board......no sports - no music....it's an either or.

On a side note I had a conversation with co-worker today during lunch and she said something very interesting.....

Basically growing up in a small town in Texas, she was always under the impression that going out to a "Fancy Italian Restaurant" was a nite at The Olive Garden. It wasn't till she moved away that she realized what a nice restaurant was.

[rictroll]

As my education inspired a life-long passion for music and the arts I strongly disagree with your point of view.

The lessons learned as a professional musician continue to serve me in my non-musical career in IT.

That's the nature of education - there are direct and indirect benefits and applications of that knowledge.

[docbop]

As my education inspired a life-long passion for music and the arts I strongly disagree with your point of view.

The lessons learned as a professional musician continue to serve me in my non-musical career in IT.

That's the nature of education - there are direct and indirect benefits and applications of that knowledge.

I was a developer at UCLA AIS and was talking to one of the counsellors and they said CompSci and Music are considered to of the harder degrees and that many Music majors end up in IT. They were is both fields require the same sense of abstract logic to comprehend. I got into computers thru the music school I worked at, and discovered a lot of musicians that worked in the computer industry.

[fumblefingers]

I'm not sure what that means. I've seen several hot young musicians make nice careers for themselves. I say God bless them all, each and every one. I think many musicians have done well without going to music school.

Some have gone to music school and then fashioned nice careers too. I say God bless them all, each and every one. (Unfortunately, I think most who go to music school do not make much of a go of it, carry a lot of debt afterward, and remain uneducated beyond music. This seems to me a terrible situation.)

The goal of a life devoted to music should be playing music all one's life. If it is fame, big crowds, adulation, then one's goal was not a life devoted to music. There's nothing wrong with being poor and having time to play whatever one wants to.

1. You needn't worry about it, it's their choice.
2. Debt comes with any major if you don't pay up front.
3. Some people major in religion, psychology, anthropology, history, philosophy, political science. All virtually worthless if one stops at undergrad.

[MarkRhodes]

That's the nature of education - there are direct and indirect benefits and applications of that knowledge.

I agree but that goes for medicine, biology, psychology, law, and history too. It's not unique to music. I appreciate the abstract qualities of music-----probably why I also love chess, theology, and philosophy----but that doesn't make it a good subject for four-year degree, especially if one's main interest is playing jazz!

IT may be a well-paying field (-I have no idea) but as an academic subject, I think it a worse choice than music!

Granted, if one is thinking, "I want to study this so I can make a good living," fine, but that is to treat education as job training, which is fine if that is what one wants, but that is nothing like seeking to become an educated person.

I realize my views on this are unpopular ones. I'm okay with that.

[Eric Rowland]

Here is an hour-long documentary how about disco "changed the world."

>>>> Between 1969 and 1979 disco soundtracked gay liberation, foregrounded female desire in the age of feminism and led to the birth of modern club culture as we know it today, before taking the world by storm.<<<<

Thanks for the "enlightment" Mark . I was under the impression that disco was nothing more than Donna Summer, a monotonous beat and the delinquency at Studio 54...I must have been deeply immersed in "Birds Of Fire" at the time.

[MarkRhodes]

1. You needn't worry about it, it's their choice.
2. Debt comes with any major if you don't pay up front.
3. Some people major in religion, psychology, anthropology, history, philosophy, political science. All virtually worthless if one stops at undergrad.

I think all the majors you listed in number 3 are better than music in terms of of general education.

[fumblefingers]

I agree but that goes for medicine, biology, psychology, law, and history too. It's not unique to music. I appreciate the abstract qualities of music-----probably why I also love chess, theology, and philosophy----but that doesn't make it a good subject for four-year degree, especially if one's main interest is playing jazz!

IT may be a well-paying field (-I have no idea) but as an academic subject, I think it a worse choice than music!

Granted, if one is thinking, "I want to study this so I can make a good living," fine, but that is to treat education as job training, which is fine if that is what one wants, but that is nothing like seeking to become an educated person.

I realize my views on this are unpopular ones. I'm okay with that.

i don't know about unpopular, but your views are certainly not well informed regarding IT as a major.

you see, liberal arts, science, business, economic, and other courses are required to get an IT degree from a solid program.

PLUS there is a difference between education and training - even in engineering topics, you just don't know anything about it Mark.

but a hint can be found by perusing the courses offered at a community college vs. 4 year college/university and a master's degree program. please, stop while you're ahead.

[fumblefingers]

Thanks for the "enlightment" Mark . I was under the impression that disco was nothing more than Donna Summer, a monotonous beat and the delinquency at Studio 54...I must have been deeply immersed in "Birds Of Fire" at the time.

i helped run a large disco in the heyday.

my estimation after all this time? garbage all the way around.

[MarkRhodes]

Thanks for the "enlightenment" Mark . I was under the impression that disco was nothing more than Donna Summer, a monotonous beat and the delinquency at Studio 54...I must have been deeply immersed in "Birds Of Fire" at the time.

Don't get me wrong, Eric, I didn't like disco then and I don't like it now. But it was a big part of the lives of millions of people, influenced fashion, movies, advertising, and other music. This still doesn't make it matter to me. Music can be culturally significant and crappy; music can be good and culturally insignificant. (<<<Millions see / hear The Beatles that way.)

I'm not interested in the social significance of music. I'm interested in playing music.

[Eric Rowland]

Don't get me wrong, Eric, I didn't like disco then and I don't like it now. But it was a big part of the lives of millions of people, influenced fashion, movies, advertising, and other music. This still doesn't make it matter to me. Music can be culturally significant and crappy; music can be good and culturally insignificant. (<<<Millions see / hear The Beatles that way.)

I'm not interested in the social significance of music. I'm interested in playing music.

I know where you're coming from Mark...we both feel the same way. All of us jazz cats are/were the polar opposite of that stuff. I was making light of the irrelevance of disco, which, hopefully, modern country music, rap, death metal etc...will all run their course and end up in their rightful place just like disco. Only the good stuff stands the test of time.