Love Wes Montgomery, but indifferent towards Joe Pass

[gcb]

I spent my youth listening to Joe Pass, (starting with Catch Me) and at 58 still keep listening to him regularly. My secondguitar method, after Baker’s I and II, was the first edition of ”Joe Pass Guitar Style”, a mind opener for me. I have all his books, including thefirst transcriptions published in “Jazz Guitar Solos”, plus his videos and most of his discography invynil and CD. One of my favorite listening is “Tudo Bem”, in particular his renditions of Wave and Vocé.There are so many others I like: For Django, Live at Donte’s, At Salle Pleyel with OscarPeterson, Blues for Two with Zoot Sims,Ira George & Joe, I Remember CharlieParker, his memorable duet with Pisano, etc. But it was the Virtuoso series, allthat solo work playing bass lines, melody and chords simultaneously, that convinced me of his uniqueness, genius,ability and exquisite talent. I have aprofound respect and appreciation for this giant of the guitar. So I wouldn’tdare to rank him: he was one of a kind.

[Spirit59]

I'd like to weigh in here if I may....

I am currently (and coincidentally) re-visiting (or maybe re-re-visiting!) Joe Pass, as I'm wanting to improve my solo guitar ability. I had studied some Pass material earlier on when I was trying to grok jazz and I agree with Jack that JP is one of the greats and should be studied.

If I hear a JP recording, I will dig it and I will smile.

But -

There are other jazz guitarists who's music makes my hair stand up and I feel it more in my body - first one that comes to mind is Wes.

It all comes down to delivery for me, because god knows you can teach a monkey about note choice. And this is a highly personal thing, even though I still wrestle with whether or not there is an objective qualitative measurement for time-feel.....devil on my shoulder says, "Hell yes!"

For me, there is nothing wrong with JP's delivery, but there are just other jazz guitarists who's delivery move me more.

[paynow]

sounds kind of square, don't it? especially compared to all the super hip jazz clarinetists that came along after him.

oh wait, there aren't any super hip jazz clarinetists. i wonder how different they would sound.

OK, can anyone here play on this level?

[cmajor9]

Another "tasty" Joe Pass album I can highly recommend is "Joe Pass in Hamburg," recorded with a big band orchestra in Germany at the end of his career.

[princeplanet]

We all know that drugs don't make for one's playing to necessarily be any more emotionally charged, otherwise JP would be more compelling in that regard (to some) than clean-cut, tea totalling Wes.

[jzucker]

We all know that drugs don't make for one's playing to necessarily be any more emotionally charged, otherwise JP would be more compelling in that regard (to some) than clean-cut, tea totalling Wes.

Right. hornbeck was claiming that he could hear the negative energy influenced by joe's substance abuse problems and my point was that some of the most revered improvisers in history (roberts, martino, miles, trane, bird, breau, stern and many, many others) were substance abusers too. It was a strawman argument because he couldn't prove his point otherwise.

[mr. beaumont]

Quelle canule!

[Flyin' Brian]

OK, can anyone here play on this level?

I never understood this statement.

Music critics have opinions and may not play.
Film critics can't act.
Most restaurant critics can't cook.

It's a non-argument.

BTW I did mention some hip clarinetists, so that's not where I'm coming from, but the "I don't care for the style of that car", "OK let's see you build a better one", argument just doesn't hold water.

And I did forget Buddy DeFranco. Good one.

[paynow]

I never understood this statement.

Music critics have opinions and may not play.
Film critics can't act.
Most restaurant critics can't cook.

It's a non-argument.

BTW I did mention some hip clarinetists, so that's not where I'm coming from, but the "I don't care for the style of that car", "OK let's see you build a better one", argument just doesn't hold water.

And I did forget Buddy DeFranco. God one.

Yeah, and I pay no attention to them either. In addition, was I commenting on something you said?

[princeplanet]

....-what's "feeling" sound like? Most of the time, people just say players they like have "feeling" and players they don't like are "emotionless."

I think that's the nutshell right there and I think I'm guilty as charged. Still, I'm waiting for someone in this thread to say that they find Wes "emotionless". Any takers?.... are there some of you reading this that are unmoved by say "Incredible", "Boss", "Full House", "Smokin'" etc?

[fumblefingers]

We all know that drugs don't make for one's playing to necessarily be any more emotionally charged, otherwise JP would be more compelling in that regard (to some) than clean-cut, tea totalling Wes.

yeah, except that Wes was addicted to nicotine i believe. i believe it killed him, did it not?

[jzucker]

what is tgp, if i may ask?

it is the dark side, young jedi...

[mr. beaumont]

off topic.

but.

with regard to conservative radio and fox, they dont call their opinion shows "news". only their critics do that, out of frustration with FOX's enormous success with a large American audience.

No, but Fox does call their whole network "news," also debatable

[paynow]

yeah, except that Wes was addicted to nicotine i believe. i believe it killed him, did it not?

He died of a heart attack. I suppose that could have contributed to it; that and the fact that he hardly ever slept and probably didn't eat correctly.

[fumblefingers]

He died of a heart attack. I suppose that could have contributed to it; that and the fact that he hardly ever slept and probably didn't eat correctly.

chain smoker for years, right?

i don't know why he wouldn't have slept after he didn't need the factory gig anymore. but what do i know.

is there a biography for him anywhere? i looked and couldn't find one. sure would like to know more about his story, background, survivors etc..

[paynow]

chain smoker for years, right?

i don't know why he wouldn't have slept after he didn't need the factory gig anymore. but what do i know.

is there a biography for him anywhere? i looked and couldn't find one. sure would like to know more about his story, background, survivors etc..

Yes. But I'd say that once he finally hit, the damage had been done. Someone on this site posted a great documentary on Wes on youtube. I can't remember who. I'm going to see if I can find it.

EDIT:

OK. Here it is, an NPR jazz profiles thing:

Part One:

Part Two:

Part Three:

Part Four:

[jzucker]

wes' nephew was an actor on the star trek next generation series. He was trying to get funding for a wes montgomery biography movie but nobody was interested. He was going to play Wes in the movie./

[paynow]

wes' nephew was an actor on the star trek next generation series. He was trying to get funding for a wes montgomery biography movie but nobody was interested. He was going to play Wes in the movie./

That would be his grandson, Anthony Montgomery.

ANTHONYMONTGOMERY.COM

If you click the link on the top that says "The Artist", then scroll to the bottom of that page, there is a link to his take on Wes.

Guitarist Tony MacAlpine, played Wes in that movie about Hank Garland, "Crazy":

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1747780/

[jzucker]

here's an excerpt from barnes/kress

[princeplanet]

Talk about kicking a dead horse.
I'm just glad The great G.B has been left out of this.

Benson? Well I for one would be happy to have him discussed here while we're throwing around the ol' "chops v feel" thing. Personally I feel he's capable of both, he can be stunning and exciting. But many of his great recordings have disappointing "over achieving" moments, imho.
To be fair, even the great Wes can be heard over cooking things a little in some of those live dates in Europe '65... although it would have been pretty hard to have not been excited with guys like Johnny Griffin up there with him...

[fumblefingers]

Yes. But I'd say that once he finally hit, the damage had been done. Someone on this site posted a great documentary on Wes on youtube. I can't remember who. I'm going to see if I can find it.

EDIT:

OK. Here it is, an NPR jazz profiles thing:

Part One:

Part Two:

Part Three:

Part Four:

thanks for posting that!

[paynow]

Benson? Well I for one would be happy to have him discussed here while we're throwing around the ol' "chops v feel" thing. Personally I feel he's capable of both, he can be stunning and exciting. But many of his great recordings have disappointing "over achieving" moments, imho.
To be fair, even the great Wes can be heard over cooking things a little in some of those live dates in Europe '65... although it would have been pretty hard to have not been excited with guys like Johnny Griffin up there with him...

The old Wes vs. George thread:

George Benson better than Wes Montgomery

thanks for posting that!

You're welcome. I've watched it a couple of times now; great stuff.

[jzucker]

The old Wes vs. George thread:

George Benson better than Wes Montgomery

Wow, I guess this group ain't much better than TGP then...

By the way, did you listen to the Kress/Barnes clip I posted?

[paynow]

Wow, I guess this group ain't much better than TGP then...

By the way, did you listen to the Kress/Barnes clip I posted?

That thread is longer than War & Peace and has more drama and angst.

Yes, I did listen: awesome! What is that from? I feel like an idiot because I never knew they played together.

[jzucker]

Yes, I did listen: awesome! What is that from? I feel like an idiot because I never knew they played together.

Guitars Anyone

Barnes/Kress: Guitars Anyone?/Swing Guitars: CD Music Details: ImportCds.com

I agree that they sound kind of corny but I love the CD cover.