Love Wes Montgomery, but indifferent towards Joe Pass

**franco6719** · 04-27-2011, 10:36 AM

Who is Hornbeek?

**jzucker** · 04-27-2011, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by franco6719

Who is Hornbeek?

the classic anonymous internet poster who stirs !@#$ up but hides behind his keyboard.

**Flyin' Brian** · 04-27-2011, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by paynow

Yes. But I'd say that once he finally hit, the damage had been done. Someone on this site posted a great documentary on Wes on youtube. I can't remember who. I'm going to see if I can find it.

EDIT:

OK. Here it is, an NPR jazz profiles thing:

Part One:

Part Two:

Part Three:

Part Four:

Thanks for posting that. Smokin' At The Half Note is indeed one of the finest jazz guitar records ever.

**whiskey02** · 04-27-2011, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

That's fine but to write off Joe Pass as strictly chops as if it's some speed-metal extravaganza, paying no attention to "Joy Spring" , "Intercontinental" and "Catch Me" is a bit of a stretch IMO.

And again, I have ZERO problem with anyone being a critic or making subjective comments but don't whine when people question you. This comes up *every time* but folks want a free rein to say someone sucks and then when you question them, they claim "forum anonymity immunity" and say you're out of bounds. If you can say "Joe Pass sucks", i can ask to hear your work.

Who said "Joe Pass sucks"? I missed that post.

**Mario Abbagliati** · 04-27-2011, 01:41 PM

For Django and Intercontinental have great sound, awesome time, fantastic ideas, technical dexterity, really good control of chords and nice tunes. That aside, they are mediocre jazz guitar records.

**gcb** · 04-27-2011, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

[...] is there a biography for him anywhere? [...]

Ingram, Adrian, Wes Montgomery, (First edition June 1985) Reprinted 1993, Ashley Mark Publishing Co, U.K, 127 pages.

**franco6719** · 04-28-2011, 10:08 AM

Alright. So, I do remember some one fellow over on Utube, I think it was, who insisted that Wes Montgomery was very overrated since he could only play nice melodic line and did not "play the whole instrument" like George Van Eps, Martin Taylor, etcc-- (Just to stoke up the old timbers a bit, eh?? It's a true story though!!)

**princeplanet** · 04-28-2011, 10:36 AM

there's lotsa guys that play more of the guitar, but for a guy who used only a thumb and 3 fingers on his right hand, seems like he played more than enough for most of us here.

That linked short doco was interesting, but alas, no further insight than what most of us know. When brother Monk spoke of the hours young Wes spent shedding and "sharpening" his sound, I wonder what his methods were. With Pass we kinda know, he wrote method books about it.

**Flyin' Brian** · 04-28-2011, 11:53 AM

Everybody has a favorite...some don't know how to say that they don't like a player without tearing that player down. Yes, I know this is a discussion board, but in the whole scheme of the world, who cares who I or anyone else thinks is "the best", and why do people have to tear down players that they don't think are the best? Are they trying to validate themselves? It's like trying to come up with a definition of what "jazz" is. To a very good player I mentioned earlier, Metheny, Sco, Abercrombie and so on aren't jazz. To others, Kenny G is jazz. To some, Steely Dan is jazz.

Due to this discussion, I have reversed my stance on one thing regarding criticism....if you say that a high level player sucks, you'd better bring something to the table yourself, otherwise you're just making noise.

Who's best? Answering that is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

**princeplanet** · 04-28-2011, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

Everybody has a favorite...some don't know how to say that they don't like a player without tearing that player down. Yes, I know this is a discussion board, but in the whole scheme of the world, who cares who I or anyone else thinks is "the best", and why do people have to tear down players that they don't think are the best? Are they trying to validate themselves? It's like trying to come up with a definition of what "jazz" is. To a very good player I mentioned earlier, Metheny, Sco, Abercrombie and so on aren't jazz. To others, Kenny G is jazz. To some, Steely Dan is jazz.

Due to this discussion, I have reversed my stance on one thing regarding criticism....if you say that a high level player sucks, you'd better bring something to the table yourself, otherwise you're just making noise.

Who's best? Answering that is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

Dunno if this is aimed at me, but I never said anyone sucks, or even that anyone is "best". Just that I prefer Wes to Pass, and am wondering why - as well as asking for any other comments or recommendations. I'm sorry you find the discussion pointless, but I'm learning from it.

As for refraining from having an opinion publicly, I prefer Dali to Picasso, but according to you I shouldn't dare even mention this unless I can show that I can paint better than Picasso! People's opinions and how they can (or even can't) quantify them are endlessly fascinating to me and, along with the concrete learning, are the reasons I visit this forum.

**Flyin' Brian** · 04-28-2011, 12:21 PM

It wasn't aimed at anybody. And you made my point by saying that you prefer Dali to Picasso. Perfect! However, if you were to say Picasso sucks, then yes, you'd better have some background to validate your position.

**oneworld** · 04-28-2011, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Wow, I guess this group ain't much better than TGP then...

yo jack, i figured that out immediately after i joined here... running into
the same posse as you did...

i admire your patience & endurance with some of the BS that's happening...

best, paul

PS: i'd love to hear/see clips with you and a live rhythm section...

**hot ford coupe** · 04-28-2011, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by oneworld

yo jack, i figured that out immediately after i joined here... running into
the same posse as you did...

i admire your patience & endurance with some of the BS that's happening...

best, paul

PS: i'd love to hear/see clips with you and a live rhythm section...

I'd hate to see you with a dead rhythm section. They have no sense of timing and the smell is overpowering. -------I'm sorry, oneworld. I just had to say it. The temptation was just too much to bear.

Brian, I think you summed it up pretty well. There are a lot of jazz guitarists like Metheny, Scofield, McLaughlin, Dimeola and others that I don't like to listen to. I prefer a different kind of music but although I don't like theirs, that doesn't mean they suck as guitarists. It just means I don't like what they do. I still freely admit that they have more musicianship and knowledge than I'll ever have in 10 lifetimes. Not liking Joe Pass is fine but you have to admit he knows his way around the fretboard.

**paynow** · 04-28-2011, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by hot ford coupe

I'd hate to see you with a dead rhythm section. They have no sense of timing and the smell is overpowering. -------I'm sorry, oneworld. I just had to say it. The temptation was just too much to bear.

I once played with a drummer, who, had he died on the bandstand, would have improved his time.

**oneworld** · 04-28-2011, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by hot ford coupe

-------I'm sorry, oneworld. I just had to say it. The temptation was just too much to bear.

yo dude, and you're not even sorry... just goes to show...

playing with a real life rhythm section as opposed to doing 'karaoke' with biab or aebersold shows a lot more about where you're at as a player/musician... addendum... you should know that by now... damn, i'm just 5 years younger than you are... and i thought things would get better when you get older....

just had to say it...

**oneworld** · 04-28-2011, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

IMO, Joe Pass is absolutely required listening and transcribing for learning to play jazz guitar.

i agree... just my opinion...

**hot ford coupe** · 04-28-2011, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by oneworld

yo dude, and you're not even sorry... just goes to show...

playing with a real life rhythm section as opposed to doing 'karaoke' with biab or aebersold shows a lot more about where you're at as a player/musician... addendum... you should know that by now... damn, i'm just 5 years younger than you are... and i thought things would get better when you get older....

just had to say it...

Oh believe me, I'm extremely sorry but I just couldn't help it.

I have fallen into temptation.

As I hang my head in shame, I realize the devastating effects of doing the karaoke thing.

Things don't really get better with age. They just seem longer .

**oneworld** · 04-28-2011, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by hot ford coupe

Oh believe me, I'm extremely sorry but I just couldn't help it.

I have fallen into temptation.

As I hang my head in shame, I realize the devastating effects of doing the karaoke thing.

Things don't really get better with age. They just seem longer .

you still don't get it... i was saying to JACK i'd prefer to see vid clips of him playing with real musicians... from a gig or rehearsal etc....
i'd like to see some from REG too... so i wasn't talking to people who mostly perform in front of a computer cam... jazz was supposed to be an interactive
type of music as far as i can remember... just sayin'...

**jzucker** · 04-28-2011, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by oneworld

you still don't get it... i was saying to JACK i'd prefer to see vid clips of him playing with real musicians... from a gig or rehearsal etc....
i'd like to see some from REG too... so i wasn't talking to people who mostly perform in front of a computer cam... jazz was supposed to be an interactive
type of music as far as i can remember... just sayin'...

I'd prefer to see that too but cleveland ain't exactly a jazz mecca. I've posted live stuff on TGP recently. I don't have videos of those gigs. It's a little tough in most clubs around here to try to set up a video camera and gigs are not plentiful unless you are playing blues or metal around here...

OTOH, If you can improvise, you can improvise. Your ideas transcend whether you are playing live or not. Of course a live band is preferable but it's possible to get your ideas across in either situation and that's the important thing IMO.

**fumblefingers** · 04-28-2011, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by franco6719

Alright. So, I do remember some one fellow over on Utube, I think it was, who insisted that Wes Montgomery was very overrated since he could only play nice melodic line and did not "play the whole instrument" like George Van Eps, Martin Taylor, etcc-- (Just to stoke up the old timbers a bit, eh?? It's a true story though!!)

what rubbish. neither of those gentlemen could/can play octaves the way that Wes did, right?

and while he didn't play much solo guitar, his "last chorus of the solo" chord soloing was as exciting as it gets, right? he ripped through big chords with speed, a clear melody on top, and with lots and lots of swing. it doesn't get any bettter than that, IMO.

**Space Pickle** · 04-28-2011, 11:10 PM

I like "Eximious".

**Spirit59** · 04-29-2011, 03:26 AM

Originally Posted by Space Pickle

I like "Eximious".

Is that a brand of quality footwear?

**hot ford coupe** · 04-29-2011, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by oneworld

you still don't get it... i was saying to JACK i'd prefer to see vid clips of him playing with real musicians... from a gig or rehearsal etc....
i'd like to see some from REG too... so i wasn't talking to people who mostly perform in front of a computer cam... jazz was supposed to be an interactive
type of music as far as i can remember... just sayin'...

Actually, I do get it. I was just trying to be funny, that's all. When I spoke about a dead rhythm section, I meant dead musicians as opposed to live ones. Bad joke. That's why I apologized.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-29-2011, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Space Pickle

I like "Eximious".

Maybe I just can't get past the tone...I gotta listen again.

All I remember is a brittle, dry guitar sound and that 70's/80's "bass pickup into the soundboard" tone from the viking's upright (and his seeming inability to just walk a line when playing with Joe)

**JensL** · 04-29-2011, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Maybe I just can't get past the tone...I gotta listen again.

All I remember is a brittle, dry guitar sound and that 70's/80's "bass pickup into the soundboard" tone from the viking's upright (and his seeming inability to just walk a line when playing with Joe)

That is exactly what I remember

Jens