Miles Davis was Mediocre

**max chill** · 12-22-2011, 07:47 AM

Miles knew what he could do, what he wanted to do and who he was. He owned his choices and chose a very personal voice over fast chops, which he had when he wanted. Not everyone enjoys his style of playing, but only an ignorant jazz musucian would say he was mediocre.

**princeplanet** · 12-22-2011, 08:03 AM

Miles is the answer....

**AmundLauritzen** · 12-22-2011, 11:21 AM

He was one of a kind. He spoke through the instrument in such a sensitive way and I've never heard anyone put more meaning into few notes as he did.
Anyone can transcribe his solos and try to play them, but they'll never replicate his sensitive tone.
And it's the imperfection that makes it perfect. The vulnerability and soreness of his tone.
I don't care if some people dislike him. For me he was one of the greatest.
I don't care much for his fusion playing, but the music he made with Bill Evans and the other greats he played with at that time is absolute perfection.

What I admire about his fusion playing though, is him being ballsy enough to break new ground taking no prisoners. It certainly inspired others to dare to be inventive in jazz. Without Miles, there is a possibility we wouldn't have the cutting edge players of our time. Someone has to be the first to step out of the comfort zone.

To me he is a hero and a true inspiration. I can never get enough of his mainstream jazz recordings.

**Smelodies** · 12-28-2011, 04:00 PM

Wtf?

**fumblefingers** · 12-28-2011, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by Smelodies

Wtf?

good question. or not.

its just some childish attempt to start some internet crap.

**Smelodies** · 12-28-2011, 06:46 PM

Well, I read the whole thread and it's interesting. I find it amusing that many of original poster's points sounded like what Metheny aimed at Kenny G. Standards are rising! Also, thanks to Coz, I've learned that Miles "borrowed" from Tommy Hearns.

**Soco** · 12-29-2011, 07:56 AM

If Miles was mediocre, what does that make the rest of us?

**cosmic gumbo** · 12-29-2011, 10:21 AM

If you were to eliminate all the groups that had been led by alumni from the Miles Davis school, what would there be?

**Smelodies** · 12-29-2011, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Soco

If Miles was mediocre, what does that make the rest of us?

Geniuses!

**cjm** · 12-29-2011, 12:08 PM

Over the course of his career, Miles Davis was a lot of different things.

If judged in the context of Bebop alone, and solely as a performer, and compared to others in the upper echelons of Bebop pioneers, then I think it is fair to say he was a mediocre player. That is not mediocre as an absolute -- only within that narrowly defined context.

But since Davis was more than a performer even within Bebop...arranger, composer, etc., and since he went on to things other than Bebop, he cannot really be defined merely as a mediocre Bebop player among the greats.

Personally, I'm not interested in what he did later...it doesn't resonate with me at all. I'd rather hear a mediocre Bebop player than listen to the direction(s) he moved off into.

But that's my subjective taste. And unless we're talking only about his time as a Bebop trumpet player, he cannot be dismissed as mediocre. The creator of something I don't much like...yes. Mediocre...no.

Now, some of the musical influences of his later career were most definitely mediocre...but he was out to pay a big mortgage and keep his Ferrari running. That's something different than defining Davis himself as mediocre.

**Smelodies** · 12-29-2011, 12:15 PM

You didn't like Kind of Blue, cjm?

**cjm** · 12-29-2011, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Smelodies

You didn't like Kind of Blue, cjm?

"Didn't like" -- or maybe just "not enamored of?"

I mean...it's okay.

But it always struck me as sounding like something that some one would do to create a niche if bop was too hard.

**Soco** · 12-29-2011, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by cjm

"Didn't like" -- or maybe just "not enamored of?"

I mean...it's okay.

But it always struck me as sounding like something that some one would do to create a niche if bop was too hard.

Kind of blues is "Okay"?
You are a tough man to please!

**cjm** · 12-29-2011, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Soco

Kind of blues is "Okay"?
You are a tough man to please!

Not really...there was a lot going on in jazz between the late 1930s and 1959 that pleases the hell out of me.

**Soco** · 12-29-2011, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by cjm

Not really...there was a lot going on in jazz between the late 1930s and 1959 that pleases the hell out of me.

But nothing after 1959?

**cjm** · 12-29-2011, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Soco

But nothing after 1959?

Of course there was and is. But 1959 was sort of a watershed year defining a move toward modal playing, and as I recall, and not coincidentally, the year Kind of Blue was released.

**Gearhead** · 12-29-2011, 01:15 PM

Comparing Pat Metheny's statement about Kenny G with the BS people have to say about Miles is totally missing the point - Pat said that Kenny G crossed a line in overdubbing Louis Armstrong's recording with his sugary lines - and you can't do that according to Pat - I agree.
Saying that Miles was a mediocre musician is blasphemy for lack of a stronger word. Miles may be a mediocre trumpet player by todays standards - but I prefer Miles Davis over thousands and ten-thousands of university trained musicians who don't have to say anything musically but to so again and again and again at every speed - man, I sound so old. But - wait - I am old. As much as I love modern jazz, I think that the most important things have been played in the 60s.
All IMHO - pardon my outburst. Peace!

**FatJeff** · 12-29-2011, 04:37 PM

The more I listen to Miles, the more I think he was perhaps the single most important jazz musician ever. The sheer breadth of his work boggles my mind.

**Smelodies** · 12-29-2011, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Gearhead

Comparing Pat Metheny's statement about Kenny G with the BS people have to say about Miles is totally missing the point - Pat said that Kenny G crossed a line in overdubbing Louis Armstrong's recording with his sugary lines - and you can't do that according to Pat - I agree.

Pat used the overdubbing of Armstrong as a jumping off point to thoroughly deconstruct Kenny G, in which some points he made are comparable to some points that were made here.

I didn't say it was a perfect analogy, but certainly the title of this thread would have been perfect for Pat to name his post, substituting Kenny for Miles.

o/' I agree with musicjohnny o/'
o/' Miles's talents are too tiny o/'

**mattymel** · 12-29-2011, 06:05 PM

CJM's list of mediocre musicians (so far):

1. Miles Davis
2. Jimi Hendrix
3. ?

Im guessing his #3 might be someone like John Lennon...maybe Bach. I know!...Wayne Shorter! haha

**brwnhornet59** · 12-29-2011, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by FatJeff

The more I listen to Miles, the more I think he was perhaps the single most important jazz musician ever. The sheer breadth of his work boggles my mind.

Miles led the way to and through several new genres. Anyone who ever played with him went on to be giants themselves. The list goes on and on.

Anyone who questions what he did for Jazz or classifies him in the mediocre dept, obviously knows nothing about Jazz, despite what they say.

I learned long ago, don't spit in the wind, do not cast pearls at swine and never question what Miles did for Jazz.

Between Miles and Bill Evans and a handful of others, they led us through the portal of enlightenment that continues to grow and shine to this day.

What a pointless topic.

**Smelodies** · 12-29-2011, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by mattymel

CJM's list of mediocre musicians (so far):

1. Miles Davis
2. Jimi Hendrix
3. ?

Im guessing his #3 might be someone like John Lennon...maybe Bach. I know!...Wayne Shorter! haha

Heh, well I take my hat off to CJM. I do like ball busting humor and high standards. Is CJM good on guitar?

**cjm** · 12-29-2011, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Smelodies

Is CJM good on guitar?

Nope. I'm not a good bass player either.

And I don't claim to be.

**brwnhornet59** · 12-29-2011, 06:55 PM

But you are a master of perception in apparently all genres? This is a Jazz guitar forum. Whether you are good or bad is of no importance.

I strongly urge you to avail yourself of the great resources and talent that abound here. Say something constructive, ask about something relevant. Put your curiosity to work in a positive way. Learn something besides how to sustain a pointless thread.

If you have nothing nice to say.......

**cjm** · 12-29-2011, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

But you are a master of perception in apparently all genres?

Didn't claim that either.

This is a Jazz guitar forum.

Why, so it is. And although not a guitar player, the topic of this thread is the late Miles Davis: A jazz musician.

Whether you are good or bad is of no importance.

I was responding to a question to dispel any notion that I consider myself to be a decent guitar player.

I strongly urge you to avail yourself of the great resources and talent that abound here. Say something constructive, ask about something relevant. Put your curiosity to work in a positive way. Learn something besides how to sustain a pointless thread.

I strongly urge you to discover the value of critical thinking in art.

If you have nothing nice to say.......

.....I've heard people use the word, "ditto." I think that might be apropos.