Miles Davis was Mediocre

**Smelodies** · 12-29-2011, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by cjm

I was responding to a question to dispel any notion that I consider myself to be a decent guitar player.

But it's established you have incredibly high standards. I'm sure you have to have played Carnegie Hall to at least be thought of as semi-crappy.

**mattymel** · 12-29-2011, 07:20 PM

considering CJM's high standards, he is probably the world's WORST guitarist.
i.e....world's best critic?

**brwnhornet59** · 12-29-2011, 07:21 PM

I strongly urge you to discover the value of critical thinking in art.

Wow, You are a real thinker. Enjoy your 15 minuets my friend.

**cjm** · 12-29-2011, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Smelodies

But it's established you have incredibly high standards.

Really?

I'm sure you have to have played Carnegie Hall to at least be thought of as semi-crappy.

Nope. The venues I've played have been more than adequate to establish my crappiness.

**cjm** · 12-29-2011, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by mattymel

considering CJM's high standards, he is probably the world's WORST guitarist.

I agree with this. Hell, I assert it.

**Smelodies** · 12-29-2011, 07:26 PM

Now I got to hear it. Put 'em on the chopping block, friend.

Showcase - The Jazz Guitar Forum

**JonnyPac** · 12-29-2011, 07:31 PM

Keep it civil. These kinds of threads are based on something TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE and never end well. Cool off your jets and add a big IMHO to your posts!!

**cjm** · 12-29-2011, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Smelodies

Now I got to hear it. Put 'em on the chopping block, friend.

Showcase - The Jazz Guitar Forum

You'll just have to accept that I'm as lousy as I say I am.

**cjm** · 12-29-2011, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

Keep it civil. These kinds of threads are based on something TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE and never end well. Cool off your jets and add a big IMHO to your posts!!

I agree with that too, so I'm done commenting in this thread. IMHO it's the best thing.

**mattymel** · 12-29-2011, 07:44 PM

or maybe just consider keeping such incendiary comments to yourself before you go about bashing institution-like status players?

try learning to play one of Miles' phrasings of any standard melody. they are an EXCELLENT starting point for learning the art of jazz phrasing. you couldn't ask for a better lesson in developing a decent sense of taste.

**Smelodies** · 12-29-2011, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by mattymel

try learning to play one of Miles' phrasings of any standard melody. they are an EXCELLENT starting point for learning the art of jazz phrasing.

Here's Jerry and David Grisman doing just that. Tell me what you think of the solo starting at 1:59.

**bobby d** · 12-29-2011, 10:55 PM

Starting a controversial topic is a sure way to create a 7 page thread. Saying Miles was mediocre is ignorant. When a musician is great, they don't have to prove it every time they have a solo. It's clear that other trumpet players show off more than Miles did, but Miles was all about playing with real feeling. Sometimes he didn't feel it but he wouldn't fake it.

**zigzag** · 12-29-2011, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

...I listen to Miles for his subtlety, his musicality, his taste, his phrasing, his sense of composition...

and his interpretations...

If you call a couple of years at Juilliard being classically trained, you're mistaken. Miles' classical training was with Bird and Dizzy at Minton's. Miles was to jazz what Picasso was to painting.

**rsh** · 12-30-2011, 10:06 AM

I don't often post here, but felt the urge to add something here. Miles was a "great" musician. Hank Williams was a "great" musician. Elvis Presley was a "great" musician. John Lennon was a "great" musician. Van Morrison is a "great" musician. Hell at times even Bruce Springsteen is a "great" musician. This list could go on and on. Not all were technically proficient on their chosen instrument, although some have their moments, each one captured the essence of what their respective MUSIC was trying to communicate at any particular moment. They "got" what it was all about. Regardless of their ability on their instrument, they MADE great music....

There might have been better horn players, but I doubt anyone "felt" their instrument or music any more than Miles did when he chose to. I love him...

Scott

**Soco** · 12-30-2011, 10:16 AM

Miles Davis is so much more than a trumpet player, he is an inovator.
He is one of the most significant musicians in the history of jazz.

**Smelodies** · 12-30-2011, 10:59 AM

We know this. I think some of you guys are taking this too seriously. Nobody in his right mind thinks Miles was mediocre.

**augusjazz** · 12-30-2011, 01:20 PM

I believe that greatness lies Miles (in addition to his compositions) on how to improvise, their language, pauses, etc.. make their unique musical discourse.

**raylinds** · 12-30-2011, 01:47 PM

One's technical proficiency as a player needs to be good enough to express on their instrument what they hear in their head. No more, no less.

Miles had that level of proficiency, and what he heard in his head is some of the greatest jazz ever made IMHO.

**Smelodies** · 12-30-2011, 03:11 PM

Getting back to the Beatles for a second, and their guitar solos, George Martin played a role in what notes they played?!

See clip:

**Sphere** · 12-30-2011, 03:23 PM

Ah, the internet. The magical world where Miles is mediocre, Hendrix is a talentless hack, Grant Green is a pentatonic wanker and everybody is an expert.

**oldane** · 12-31-2011, 10:52 AM

Wild Bell Davison said about Miles that he was "a lousy trumpet player and a nasty person". Miles himself said about Bird that he was "a dirty motherf*****" to deal with. He may have been, but is he less influential because of that?

I agree that Miles may not have been the worlds greatest trumpet virtuoso. His playing is not always my cup of tea. From what I have read (in his own autobiography among other places), he may actually have been a nasty person.

Despite this, he knew exacly what he could and could not do. He avoided those things he cold not do and did those things well he could do. He had a very sure sense of style and of what was going on around him. He set the pace for jazz for two decades. He also fostered many musicians who later turned out to be greats themselves.

So no, I don't think one can call Miles mediocre. Whether one likes his personality or his playing style, he was one of the three or four greatest trend setters in jazz. That's certainly not mediocre. That takes talent, intelligence, strong personality and will power.

**vinlander** · 12-31-2011, 11:06 AM

I don't think any Jazz legend deserve the term mediocre and Miles Davis is no exception; there is more than just to be the ultimate soloist on your instrument. Jazz is not your typical superficial musical style (read pop and rock) where popularity and hype is all what you need to be leading the polls...
We are talking about Jazz where a huge percentage of the audience is either playing music or simply very critic of what is going on ...
The vision, the actual achievement in pushing the limits of a musical style, how you have helped other musicians finding their way are more important in my eyes and in that sense he is a legend.

**mattymel** · 12-31-2011, 11:26 AM

Listen to the man play "Airegin" with Sonny and tell me that's a "mediocre" soloist...

**FatJeff** · 12-31-2011, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

Despite this, he knew exacly what he could and could not do. He avoided those things he cold not do and did those things well he could do.

It was pointed out to me recently that Miles never played anything with Coltrane changes in it. Whether it just didn't resonate with him, or it was too hard, we'll probably never know.

**OldGuitarPlayer** · 12-31-2011, 11:41 AM

Miles Davis was 20 years old when this was recorded.
What were you doing when you were 20 yrs old? Not playing with Charlie Parker that's for sure. You think he got this gig because he was mediocre?