Miles Davis was Mediocre

[pingu]

I dissagree with you

Billy was extremely musical , and all the cats loved to play with her

dig dis for phrazing maaaan

[cosmic gumbo]

I would not overlook the observation that Miles and some other musicians were making about bebop. It was exhausting itself of places to go except speed and complexity. More changes, faster and faster tempos. The need for chops at a virtuosic level. Reminds me of guitar shredding mentality, where the main focus is speed and technique over musicality.

Miles was rebelling against this mentality when he jumped into modal jazz. He'd had his fill of the dead end speed game and wanted to groove and get musical again. Miles was a leader at the forefront of every change in jazz in his lifetime. While virtuosic chops remain on display in jazz, at least thoughtful and soulful musicality are accepted as a skill too.

[max_power]

I would not overlook the observation that Miles and some other musicians were making about bebop. It was exhausting itself of places to go except speed and complexity. More changes, faster and faster tempos. The need for chops at a virtuosic level. Reminds me of guitar shredding mentality, where the main focus is speed and technique over musicality.

Miles was rebelling against this mentality when he jumped into modal jazz. He'd had his fill of the dead end speed game and wanted to groove and get musical again. Miles was a leader at the forefront of every change in jazz in his lifetime. While virtuosic chops remain on display in jazz, at least thoughtful and soulful musicality are accepted as a skill too.

I don't think speed was really the issue; I think it had more to do with the desire for melodic freedom. During the 60s Miles' band just kept playing their tunes faster and faster... for example:

Walkin':

Agitation:

Gingerbread Boy:

[ksjazzguitar]

...It was exhausting itself of places to go except speed and complexity. More changes, faster and faster tempos. The need for chops at a virtuosic level. Reminds me of guitar shredding mentality, where the main focus is speed and technique over musicality.

Oh, I think that that's alive and well today in the jazz world. I lent a Bucky Pizzarelli CD to another guitar player at the Uni and he brought it back saying, "The guy can play I guess, but I kept waiting to hear him burn. How good can he be? The guy can't rip it up."

Miles was rebelling against this mentality when he jumped into modal jazz. He'd had his fill of the dead end speed game and wanted to groove and get musical again ....

I can't remember where, but I remember reading that part of Miles' reason for slowing things down what that he was having trouble keeping up and was spending his effort trying to play faster instead of more musically. In all fairness, I can't remember where I read that. I can't remember if it was based on something that Miles said or if it was something someone was judging based on their perception from the recordings.

Peace,
Kevin

[Nick0783]

I would not overlook the observation that Miles and some other musicians were making about bebop. It was exhausting itself of places to go except speed and complexity. More changes, faster and faster tempos. The need for chops at a virtuosic level. Reminds me of guitar shredding mentality, where the main focus is speed and technique over musicality.

Miles was rebelling against this mentality when he jumped into modal jazz. He'd had his fill of the dead end speed game and wanted to groove and get musical again. Miles was a leader at the forefront of every change in jazz in his lifetime. While virtuosic chops remain on display in jazz, at least thoughtful and soulful musicality are accepted as a skill too.

I agree that the move away from really fast playing as a prerequisite for jazz was a good one, and that Miles Davis deserves some credit for this, but I still agree with the original post. From what I have heard of his output, with the exception of kind of Blue, his playing has a weird stilted, joyless quality. So different from the original pioneers of jazz.
I don't think anyone is saying he is terrible, just over rated.

[fep]

Bechet's version of Summertime is sublime. Can't quite see all the fuss about Miles Davis myself.

Betchet version is great. But his phrasing while very good is standard jazz phrasing that wouldn't be hard to copy and would be easy to notate (except for all that bending). I like his version so much that I'm putting it on my list to transcribe.

However, I like Miles version better. It's his phrasing and handling of notes (i.e. swelling the note, fading the note, where he starts the note, where he ends the note, etc.). It's magical to me.

If I were to read sheet music of both those versions before hearing them... I would be able to phrase the Betchet version much more convincingly although I'd need skinny strings to do all that bending. The bending would be the hardest part for me to emulate.

Capturing the phrasing of that Miles magic just off of sheet music would be just about impossible. I'd have to listen to the recording a bunch to even get close, probably still couldn't do it.

[MarkRhodes]

I would not overlook the observation that Miles and some other musicians were making about bebop. It was exhausting itself of places to go except speed and complexity. More changes, faster and faster tempos. The need for chops at a virtuosic level. Reminds me of guitar shredding mentality, where the main focus is speed and technique over musicality

I can see that as a complaint about bebop, but a lot of pre-bebop (swing) grooved at tempi north of 200 and it requires some chops to groove in that setting. And a lot of jazzers couldn't, which is why they didn't get to solo! The soloists who could---Charlie Christian being a favorite example for us guitarists---were admired for it. He wasn't called "the genius of the electric guitar" because of his comping but because of his solos. His "Honeysuckle Rose" solo soars around 220 bpm, while "Air Mail Special" and "Seven Come Eleven" are right at 200. And the dude was playing with all *down*strokes (-if Barney Kessell is to be believed on this point, and I certainly regard him as a credible witness.)

No one (here, anyway) ever argued that speed is all that matters, but it is bizarre to suggest in a jazz (-as it would be in a classical context) that speed on one's instrument is un-important or that it has nothing to do with *music.* Fast players are the most accurate and most consistent. That's relevant to whatever you play. (You simply can't be accurate and consistent without developing speed on your instrument.) Not everyone is fast----I'm no Speedy Gonzales by any means---but it is always an *advantage* for a musician to, you know, have the best possible command of his instrument. Bird and Coltrane, for example, could really groove a *slow* blues too.

[MarkRhodes]

I don't think speed was really the issue; I think it had more to do with the desire for melodic freedom. During the 60s Miles' band just kept playing their tunes faster and faster... for example:

Walkin':

Agitation:

Gingerbread Boy:

I think that's a great point. I was listening to "Live At The 1963 Monterey Jazz Festival" by the Carter, Coleman, Hancock, Williams (+Miles) Quintet and I got bored with it. They were playing very fast and seemingly forever. (Four of the record's six tracks log in over eleven minutes.) Master musicians, no doubt, but enough, already.

[paynow]

Oh, I think that that's alive and well today in the jazz world. I lent a Bucky Pizzarelli CD to another guitar player at the Uni and he brought it back saying, "The guy can play I guess, but I kept waiting to hear him burn. How good can he be? The guy can't rip it up."

"He can play, I guess". No, he's outstanding. So is John Jr., who burns constantly. John with Bucky and brother Martin on bass was one of the first live jazz acts I ever saw, back about 30 years ago. They had chops and they were musical.

Have your pal watch this:

It's not Bucky but as they say, "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree."

[MarkRhodes]

My point is that the technical aspects are very superficial to musicality. Playing notes fast does not make it more musical. Playing something that is very musical but not technically demanding does not make it less musical.

To say that Van Halen has more technical flash than BB King does not say that he is a better musician. The technical aspects of playing the instrument are superficial to the music that these people are producing.

Again, this is just wrong. You can't *play* music without command of your instrument at the level required by the repertoire. Much of jazz is fast---not just bebop; hell, Benny Goodman was ripping it up north of 250 in his 70s---and if you can't hang with that, it's not because you're "too musical" for the situation but because you're not musical *enough.* All fast players are *accurate* and *consistent*, which helps every *other* aspect of their playing. (Ever heard a really fast jazz player who couldn't keep time? No. Who couldn't deftly handle slow and mid-tempo tunes? No. Whose articulation sucked? No. It *shouldn't* be any surprise when a jazz virtuoso--Bird, Coltrane, Clifford Brown, Sonny Rollins, Oscar Peterson, Joe Pass--plays ballads beautifully.)

Oh, and Eddie Van Halen *is* a better musician than BB King. BB King would tell you the same thing. I think a better comparison would be BB King and Les Paul (-roughly the same generation) or Les Paul and Eddie Van Halen (-both flashy but in different eras: by the way, they were great admirers of one another.) BB is upfront about his musical limitations, which are many. (He doesn't play chords anymore, for example, and he rarely practices. He hasn't learned a new lick since the '60s.) It's fascinating---and easy---to compare recent BB King recordings to those Benny Goodman made in his later years.

[princeplanet]

Well, I dunno how you cats listen to Jazz, but personally I listen the same way I listen to human voices. It can be slow, fast or in between, the speed or lack of doesn't move me, it's what is said, and how. Now I may not like latter day Miles as much as his mid period stuff, and I know there was a lot of BS going on in his personal life. But I just wanted to say that every damn time he put that horn in his mouth I believed him. He played the truth. And if you can say that for a handful of others, then it's probably because they learned it from Miles.

[ksjazzguitar]

...Have your pal watch this [John Pizzarelli]...

No, he;d probably like that - it's full of chops. For the record, I am a huge Bucky fan (John too, just not as much.)

Again, this is just wrong. ...

Man, you love just telling me that I'm definitively wrong.

No, I don't think that EVH is a better musician than BB. I think that taste is a big part of musicianship. BB has it in truckloads and EVH, well ... not so much, IMHO.

Do we need to make a list of great players that didn't burn? We just mentioned Bucky Pizzarelli. How about Charlie Christian or Wes or Hendrix of Clapton? None of those guys were burners, but they had truckloads of taste.

If you value chops and flash, go ahead. I just find it shallow and when taken to excess to be unmusical. I'd rather here Bucky play with taste and musical wisdom than hear some young lion rip through a bunch of MM scales.

I'm not telling you what to value. Just please don't tell me.

Well, I dunno how you cats listen to Jazz, but personally I listen the same way I listen to human voices. It can be slow, fast or in between, the speed or lack of doesn't move me, it's what is said, and how. ...

True. And I'm not saying that a person can't have both. I just find that sometimes the speed is used to mask a deficit in taste and musicality.

Peace,
Kevin

[tonelab]

I think that taste is a big part of musicianship. BB has it in truckloads and EVH, well ... not so much, IMHO.

There are many things that BB played that really spoke to me emotionally. I can't say the same for EVH. I think that's what we are talking about on this thread...not how many BPMs.

[MarkRhodes]

[QUOTE=ksjazzguitar;125500]N
Man, you love just telling me that I'm definitively wrong.

No, but when you're dead wrong, you're dead wrong. I wish you'd say, "Hey, I f**ked up in what I said" and move on. (I"m moving on in any case.)

Technical mastery of one's instrument is *always* an advantage for a musician (duh!), and one aspect of technical mastery is speed. (If you can't play fast it's for one of three reasons: 1) your fingering is sloppy, 2) your picking is sloppy, or 3) you're too lazy to practice--any of these deficits will corrupt your playing at mid-tempo too.)

We're not talking about whether X is playing "too many notes" in solo Y, but whether X *can* play fast. It's better to have the ability and not see the need to use it than to lack the ability and pretend it's not very important. And of course, it's grand to *use* that ability at the right time.

[Baltar Hornbeek]

Does putting asterisks around a subjective measure of greatness somehow transform it to objective fact? There's a little fascist in us all.

[JohnW400]

Oh, I think that that's alive and well today in the jazz world. I lent a Bucky Pizzarelli CD to another guitar player at the Uni and he brought it back saying, "The guy can play I guess, but I kept waiting to hear him burn. How good can he be? The guy can't rip it up."



Peace,
Kevin

Yes, And Bucky will FILL a club with more nonmusicians just coming out to here good music than say Mike Stern will draw guitar players to the 55 bar

[paynow]

Yes, And Bucky will FILL a club with more nonmusicians just coming out to here good music than say Mike Stern will draw guitar players to the 55 bar

So true and I love Mike Stern; I used to go see the Pizzarellis at the now defunct (unfortunately) Defemio's in Yonkers, NY. I was young and just starting on guitar and I learned so much about musicianship, musicality, how to act on a gig. Awesome.

And believe me, Bucky has chops. He's not really a bebop guy per se, but he can blow. He would do these sort of octave solos with Jr., who at the time was maybe in his late teens-early 20s, that would have the jaws of people dropping on the floor. A true musician.

[MarkRhodes]

Does putting asterisks around a subjective measure of greatness somehow transform it to objective fact? There's a little fascist in us all.

Yes, I thought everyone knew that...

I use asterisks for italics. (This forum allows for italics but not all do, so the *asterisk* is my symbol for italics.) It doesn't make something true but it lets you know that I'm emphasizing that word. Where you got the idea that I restrict the usage to "subjective measures of greatness" is curious because, well, I don't. I'm most apt to put asterisks around such words as *can,* *does,* *is* or *not.*

[Flyin' Brian]

Fast players are the most accurate and most consistent. That's relevant to whatever you play. (You simply can't be accurate and consistent without developing speed on your instrument.)

Jim Hall might be surprised to hear this.

[Stackabones]

Jim Hall might be surprised to hear this.

Someone verify this ... I heard he had a biz card that said, "Won't play loud. Can't play fast."

Even if it ain't true, .

[cosmic gumbo]

There seems to be a bit of confusion about high tempos as they relate to swing, bebop, and hard bop/post bop. The difference is the way changes are dealt with. Playing over fast, busy, bebop changes is the most demanding, with the least melodic freedom.

Branford Marsalis was just commenting about how complex modern jazz has become and that the amount of skill and education required to deal with uneven rhythms and dense harmonic structures was starting to produce a lot of "head over heart" music that was getting far away from gospel, blues, and swing influenced jazz. Even though he can play it all, he doesn't want the music to get so complex that only an elite can play it and listen to it.

Next, something about tone. As a slide guitarist, I've worked hard to have a clean, singing tone, like er...all those white players, Allman, etc. Just recently read an article about Lionel Loueke, and how he experiments with putting paper and other things in his guitar strings to make a buzzing sound...he goes on to say that it is a very important African musical aesthetic that is considered beautiful. That was why black delta slide players had a very buzzy tone, that's what they were going for..and he commented that was what Miles was doing on trumpet, especially with the mute, and the other black jazzers knew it was rooted in Africa...kinda all makes sense now...


As far as Bucky P's chops go, French jazz violinist Stéphane Grappelli chose Bucky to be Django's replacement in the Quintet du Hot Club de France. Does any more need to be said?

[paynow]

There seems to be a bit of confusion about high tempos as they relate to swing, bebop, and hard bop/post bop. The difference is the way changes are dealt with. Playing over fast, busy, bebop changes is the most demanding, with the least melodic freedom.

Branford Marsalis was just commenting about how complex modern jazz has become and that the amount of skill and education required to deal with uneven rhythms and dense harmonic structures was starting to produce a lot of "head over heart" music that was getting far away from gospel, blues, and swing influenced jazz. Even though he can play it all, he doesn't want the music to get so complex that only an elite can play it and listen to it.

Next, something about tone. As a slide guitarist, I've worked hard to have a clean, singing tone, like er...all those white players, Allman, etc. Just recently read an article about Lionel Loueke, and how he experiments with putting paper and other things in his guitar strings to make a buzzing sound...he goes on to say that it is a very important African musical aesthetic that is considered beautiful. That was why black delta slide players had a very buzzy tone, that's what they were going for..and he commented that was what Miles was doing on trumpet, especially with the mute, and the other black jazzers knew it was rooted in Africa...kinda all makes sense now...


As far as Bucky P's chops go, French jazz violinist Stéphane Grappelli chose Bucky to be Django's replacement in the Quintet du Hot Club de France. Does any more need to be said?

Well said.

[ksjazzguitar]

No, but when you're dead wrong, you're dead wrong. I wish you'd say, "Hey, I f**ked up in what I said" and move on. (I"m moving on in any case.)

I'm not aware that expressing my opinion about the subjective values of certain things needs this much scorn. Relax, take a breath.

Technical mastery of one's instrument is *always* an advantage for a musician (duh!), and one aspect of technical mastery is speed.

Well, obviously I'm not saying that all technique is worthless. I just think that for some musicians and some fans it becomes a pursuit unto itself.

Yes, to be a good chef, you need to be able to handle the knife. But that doesn't mean that you need to be able to do those ninja moves that they do at Benihana. A mason needs to know how to measure well, but he doesn't need to know how to measure down to the nanometer. A farmer should know how to work the field, but being able to do it ten times faster doesn't make the food taste better. There is a point where technical mastery just becomes gratuitous, IMHO.

To me it's like a Jerry Bruckheimer film - lot's of flash and explosions and special effects and technical wizardry. When I leave, I am blown away, but then I start asking myself: Was there a story there? I got so blown away by the flash that I didn't realize that there wasn't a story. A few weeks later, I can't even remember what the movie was about.

Now a good Woodie Allen movie (OK, not the recent stuff, he's been dragging lately), it may not have the flash, but it tells a story. There are Woody Allen movies that still stick with me after 30 years. True, he may not have the technical wizardry with a camera and CGI that the Bruckheimers of the world have, but he tells stories that affect you on a deeper level. To me all that flash is superficial - I want the deeper story. I really don't care that Woody doesn't know how to crash a bus into a gas station that causes and explosion that causes the helicopter carrying the bad guy to crash into the zoo where he is eaten by mutant-alien polar bears to thunderous cheers of a mindless audience.

That's what I hear when I listen to an EVH solo - technical mastery for the sake of technical mastery. I'd rather listen to BB any day of the week. He tells a story.

BUT CALM DOWN! It's just a difference of taste. Chacun a son gout!

...And believe me, Bucky has chops. He's not really a bebop guy per se, but he can blow....

Don't get me wrong. Bucky is one of my all time favorite players. If you check my web store you'll see that I've transcribed several of his solos. Some time I'll tell you about renting a car to drive through the snow to see him play in upstate New York - without a happy ending.

I just think that "chops" is usually defined as "playing notes fast" - certainly not Bucky's strength. But if we're willing to expand the definition, I'd say that he has masterful chordal chops, groove chops, melodic chops, musicianship chops, etc.

Peace,
Kevin

[princeplanet]

Miles brought about the awareness that searching, lyrical playing was not only valid, but hip. Now of course, this may have had a downside.... for example, Johnny Griffin, who had the unfortunate reputation as "fastest saxophonist on earth" in the late 50's early 60's was clearly under appreciated at the time owing to some the jazz media's fixation with promoting anything that was trying to move on from strict bop, ie, third stream, modal, cool jazz, or the newer emerging experimentalists. "Too fast for his own good" they seemed to say. This now seems patently unwarranted. Just listen to "A Blowin Session" or even his work with Wes Montgomery if you don't know what I mean.

Although I agree that too many youngsters have more velocity than taste, it is possible to be fast and good! But just crawl before you walk before you run before you fly.....

[Nick0783]

Betchet version is great. But his phrasing while very good is standard jazz phrasing that wouldn't be hard to copy and would be easy to notate (except for all that bending). I like his version so much that I'm putting it on my list to transcribe.

However, I like Miles version better. It's his phrasing and handling of notes (i.e. swelling the note, fading the note, where he starts the note, where he ends the note, etc.). It's magical to me.

If I were to read sheet music of both those versions before hearing them... I would be able to phrase the Betchet version much more convincingly although I'd need skinny strings to do all that bending. The bending would be the hardest part for me to emulate.

Capturing the phrasing of that Miles magic just off of sheet music would be just about impossible. I'd have to listen to the recording a bunch to even get close, probably still couldn't do it.

It's worth remembering that "standard jazz phrasing" only became standard because it was invented by players like Bechet. I guess at the time his approach was every bit as innovative as Miles'.
On the Bechet version there is a bit at around 3:00 where he just plays one note over again, it's very idiosyncratic to my ears, but brilliantly evokes a kind of supressed tension, then - at 3.19- he brings in the major sixth of the tonic chord which ups the stakes even more, makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck.
I like the way it builds, using space and virtuosity.
Miles' version is ok, but a bit too glum and sparse for my tastes.
Having said that, he has got a completely unique voice, hard to mistake for anyone else. And I also really like the harmonised motifs that underlie a lot of his records, not being an expert on his music I don't know the extent of his contribution to these arrangements. I think this is a great version of A night in Tunisia though: