Is it ok to not like Charlie Parker?

[pamosmusic]

Got it, thanks. And I'm sure we're about one post away from you reminding us that Barry Harris invented jazz too. Because he said he did. That's whole other cult.

I was never trolling on this thread, but I have to say, I find it amusing how bent out of shape you guys get by my "ignorance". I have recognized Parker's greatness multiple times in this thread, but nope, not good enough for the cult members. I asked a simple question to about the rhythm development, and it's lecture time again. I'll be blocking you, bye.

Okay.

i won’t be blocking you but I guess I understand the impulse.

[grahambop]

what a lot of cults…

[Ingo Lee]

And on the points above, I tend to think we overweight genius by an enormous factor. But if you can miss the arc of artistic history and stuff by looking for Great Men in every major development, you can also occasionally miss huge shifts by assuming singular figures are *never* as important as people say they are.

There are very very few figures like that but Charlie Parker is probably one of them.

Louis Armstrong and Elvis.

[pamosmusic]

Louis Armstrong and Elvis.

Louis maybe. Elvis I don’t think I’d really think of that way.

EDIT: pop music at that time was obviously complicated by those separate R&B charts and a lot of black musicians doing things that just weren’t heard by the broader public. So Elvis was a huge revolution for a lot of people but also wasn’t doing anything particularly new and probably wouldn’t claim to be. Then again, Bird probably wouldn’t claim to be either? Who knows. Interesting stuff, anyways

[jameslovestal]

what a lot of cults…

As one can see these "cults" are at the center of the strawman. Attribute XYZ to "them" based on BS points that were created to be defeated.

[grahambop]

Yes it’s news to me that Barry Harris claimed to have invented jazz. It would mean he’d also invented a time machine.

[charlieparker]

The story I heard about who invented Bebop was that there was this jam session at Minton's with Charlie Christian, Dizzy, Bird, Monk, and others and a recording ban at the time.

Then Parker and Dizzy released probably the first album of this new style with Koko and other tracks.

I agree that it would be erroneous to solely credit Bird for these developments. However, I think he was the most representative exemplar of this music.

Monk was more idiosyncratic, carving out his own niche. Dizzy didn't really record as much in the bebop style. Bud was probably the closest to Bird but was slightly later.

I would argue that few later players even mastered bebop the way the creators played it. So we are left with Bud and Bird as the primary expositors of the bebop style.

[James W]

The story I heard about who invented Bebop was that there was this jam session at Minton's with Charlie Christian, Dizzy, Bird, Monk, and others and a recording ban at the time.

Then Parker and Dizzy released probably the first album of this new style with Koko and other tracks.

I agree that it would be erroneous to solely credit Bird for these developments. However, I think he was the most representative exemplar of this music.

Monk was more idiosyncratic, carving out his own niche. Dizzy didn't really record as much in the bebop style. Bud was probably the closest to Bird but was slightly later.

I would argue that few later players even mastered bebop the way the creators played it. So we are left with Bud and Bird as the primary expositors of the bebop style.

It's a pity Bird and Bud didn't see eye to eye, to put it mildly. There are only a handful of recordings with Bud as Bird's pianist before Bud was replaced with the not so good Duke Jordan, if memory serves.

[pcjazz]

It's a pity Bird and Bud didn't see eye to eye, to put it mildly. There are only a handful of recordings with Bud as Bird's pianist before Bud was replaced with the not so good Duke Jordan, if memory serves.

Powell was institutionalized after being beaten by police in 1945 and continued in and out of hospitals until about 1950, when he went to live and work in Europe. So there was little opportunity to work with Parker after the mid-1940s.

[Jazz4Four]

As one can see these "cults" are at the center of the strawman. Attribute XYZ to "them" based on BS points that were created to be defeated.

This coming from someone who lectures people on sexual orientation on a jazz guitar forum... You seriously need to get a life.

[grahambop]

I'm curious, what was the big change in the rhythm? Was it tempo primarily?

Some details in here about Kenny Clarke’s role:

Kenny Clarke - Wikipedia

[jameslovestal]

This coming from someone who lectures people on sexual orientation on a jazz guitar forum... You seriously need to get a life.

You sure you the term "lectures" a lot. I find that very humorous.

[pamosmusic]

Some details in here about Kenny Clarke’s role:

Kenny Clarke - Wikipedia

Also a bunch about it in the Ethan Iverson link I posted a while back in the thread

Charles McPherson and Steve Coleman on Charlie Parker | DO THE M@TH

In that particular interview but in every piece in the index. Bird Is the Word is a good one

[James W]

Powell was institutionalized after being beaten by police in 1945 and continued in and out of hospitals until about 1950, when he went to live and work in Europe. So there was little opportunity to work with Parker after the mid-1940s.

That may be so but I had read that Parker and Powell didn't get on either. Parker had been briefly institutionalised too. As far as I know, they only had one recording session together which featured - 'Donna Lee', 'Chasin' The Bird', 'Cheryl' and 'Buzzy' all from 1947.

Whatever the reason, it was a shame they didn't record together more.

[Christian Miller]

I'm curious, what was the big change in the rhythm? Was it tempo primarily?

Listen to music before the bebop era - stuff like Chick Webb, 30s/40s Basie, Benny Goodman etc. it’s a different world.

This is what jazz drumming sounded like before bebop

Kenny Clarke popularised time keeping on the ride cymbal and comping on the snare, a radical shift but something absolutely basic to modern jazz drum technique - earlier drummers had kept time on the bass, snare and when they became available in the later 30s, the hi hat. Cymbal manufacturers had discovered ways to make dedicated ride cymbals for the purpose around the same time - a meeting of art and technology.

Also bass started to walk in four more and the rhythm guitar was increasingly dropped from small jazz band line ups.


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[Christian Miller]

Sure and maybe Bud Powell. With some of these guys—probably Dizzy too—it would be hard to separate the extent to which Charlie Parker was influencing them from the extent to which they were influencing him. But those guys do tend to have less (still a good bit, but definitely less) cross-instrument influence than Bird. And Powell was a little later on the scene to boot.

If we’re looking for someone who influenced jazz as much as Bird did, I think you’d have less luck looking for someone who was a bebopper because you won’t find one. Or for someone who came later (like Trane) because they were wrestling with Bird and almost across the board would’ve considered him their major influence as young musicians.

Maybe Monk is the one. Super profound and inescapable influence on the way jazzers approach harmony and composition and in a way kind of parallel to and a little separate from Birds? Don’t know but he seems like the best case.

Without Bird it’s hard to imagine Bud Powell


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[James W]

Listen to music before the bebop era - stuff like Chick Webb, 30s/40s Basie, Benny Goodman etc. it’s a different world.

This is what jazz drumming sounded like before bebop

Kenny Clarke popularised time keeping on the ride cymbal and comping on the snare, a radical shift but something absolutely basic to modern jazz drum technique - earlier drummers had kept time on the bass, snare and when they became available in the later 30s, the hi hat. Cymbal manufacturers had discovered ways to make dedicated ride cymbals for the purpose around the same time - a meeting of art and technology.

Also bass started to walk in four more and the rhythm guitar was increasingly dropped from small jazz band line ups.


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Max Roach too?

[AllanAllen]

Max Roach too?

Max Roach and Clifford Brown are criminally underrated.

[Ascend to Victory]

There's an incredible energy to Bird's manipulation of the rhythm. The main reason I listen to Parker, is the hope that I will internalize the pocket he implemented. Anytime I go to a jam session, I'll be listening to music that seems to exude the rhythmic feel that Parker so graciously bestowed upon humanity.

[Dean_G]

WTF, I can't say I've ever heard anyone underrate Clifford Brown or Max Roach. They're gods to any actual jazz fan, assuming they been around for awhile. Or are you talking social media "Likes"?

[jameslovestal]

Max Roach and Clifford Brown are criminally underrated.

What makes you think that? (this isn't the case with my circle of jazz listeners and musicians).

Note that terms like "underrated" are criticisms of people's opinion about an "artist" and thus such terms have no relation to the artist in question.

[pamosmusic]

To be fair, no matter how high you rate Clifford Brown and Max Roach — it’s probably not high enough

[Stringswinger]

To be fair, no matter how high you rate Clifford Brown and Max Roach — it’s probably not high enough

+1
A better trumpet player and a better drummer have not shown up since those giants left the scene.

[grahambop]

Max Roach and Clifford Brown are criminally underrated.

Not by me!

[pamosmusic]

+1
A better trumpet player and a better drummer have not shown up since those giants left the scene.

I’d be lying if I said I was sufficiently into Max Roach.

But one of my best friends in college and the first guy I met in the music department was a trumpet player a few years older than me and he was VERY into Clifford. So Clifford has been very big for me for a long time.

Most of the Max Roach I’m into is incidental because of the Clifford Brown. Also Charlie Parker Quintet at Massey Hall. I’ve probably listened to that record 500 times if I’ve listened to it once.

(speaking of which — @james … that’s a Bud Powell and Bird date)