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I often think there are two sort of parallel uses for transcribing.
Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
The first is to learn how to play like someone else plays.
The second is to learn how to produce the same effect as someone else by playing the way you play.
An example with guitar might be Wes Montgomery. Should you learn how to play his solos with your thumb, or should you learn how to play his solos the way you normally play them but do your very best to mimic his tone?
We run into this all the time on guitar because there are so many different ways to produce the same sound, so its second nature when we’re dealing with guitarists. I slur into downbeats, but Jim Hall doesn’t. Should I articulate his way, or should I articulate my way and try to make it sound like him? Answer: yes. Charlie Christian uses a lot of downstrokes, etc etc.
I loved playing solos from the first quintet when there were bends and sustained notes and trying to figure that stuff out. I’ve been kind of obsessed with trumpet articulation for a long time and guitar players don’t think about shaping that part of their sound enough and it shows.
You can try tremolo, you can try playing repeated eighth or quarter notes. But you can also just play the note and let it hang. A guitar player who isn’t comfortable playing a note and then letting a few bars pass in silence is going to be really boring to listen to by the time they get to their second chorus.
Miles is how a lot of people learn this. Sure maybe you don’t want to learn his ballads, but Freddie Freeloader and Bags Groove are solos that have been used to teach phrasing to jazz improvisers on all instruments pretty much since the day he played them.
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05-26-2025 07:46 AM
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No Ragman plays 1960's acoustic "English Neo-Classical Folk Jazz", approximating the style of John Renbourn, Davy Graham, Bert Jansch etc Originally Posted by grahambop
"English Neo-Classical Folk Jazz" is abbreviation: ENFJ.
Google ENFJ.
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I guess another mistake would be assuming that you have to incorporate something into your playing to have learned from it.
Maybe I play some single note at the beginning of my fourth chorus because Miles does it but I can’t get the same drama and stuff without trumpet sustain.
Is saying … “hmmm … space and long notes don’t work for me here like they do elsewhere in the chorus” not learning from miles?
I learned rather a lot from transcribing Coltrane on Mr PC and Giant Steps with no hope whatsoever of playing them to tempo. Oddly enough no one doubted the utility of working on that stuff.
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Emphasis on the judging Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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If I liked Ragman's solos, I would gladly transcribe them. Originally Posted by grahambop
By the way:
Miles Davis has recorded at least 149 albums and singles...Last edited by kris; 05-26-2025 at 08:29 AM.
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I used to listen to Miles quite obsessively and I’ve got about 40 of his albums, so I guess I must have learned something from him (I did transcribe one solo of his, ‘Deception’ from Birth of the Cool).
Probably what I got from his playing was to get away from using strings of eighth notes all the time, use some short phrases sometimes, vary the rhythms inside those phrases, put some space between them, etc.
Also learned to go around saying ‘bad m*****f***er’ as an expression of approval.
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Had he lived, I have a feeling he would have explored this genre more thoroughly. Would have loved to see a collab with A Tribe Called Quest, MF Doom or J Dilla. Originally Posted by grahambop
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Great minds, dear boy, great minds Originally Posted by grahambop
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Great mind, imitative mind. Originally Posted by ragman1
Great minds, dear boy, great minds
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After reading MD's autobiography, I learned that motherf*cker can be used as a noun, verb, adjective, adverb, and interjection. Alas, I have not been able to use it as a conjunction, though a I suspect MD could if pressed.
Other than that I learned:
Use space
Explore articulation and color on the instrument
Explore dynamics
Play with great bands
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More importantly, you both have good ears. Originally Posted by ragman1
Great minds, dear boy, great minds
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Rules can be broken/bend and conventions and expectations can be challenged. Davis did it, Dylan did it as well.
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I will never understand why some musicians become so infatuated with other musicians
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Yeah super weird the way musicians like music so much. Originally Posted by DC Cornelius
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Why is a painter infatuated with van Gogh? Originally Posted by DC Cornelius
Why is a pianist infatuated with Chopin?
Why can't a 10 year old contain his excitement when they see Messi or M'bappe play?
Why do aspiring scientists love Sagan?
Why do countless generations love Attenborough?
Why are people infatuated with writers and poets?
Part of what makes these types of people iconic is their ability to touch our sensibilities, to connect with us and to inspire us to want to be better and to be like them, or to reach a similar state in whatever field it is we are operating in.
If you are a better person because of your infatuation for a legend, what's the problem?
If one of these legends inspire you to express yourself - even if you try to copy them - more power to you.
And finally, if you are able to truly create new things based off on your infatuation with other musicians, if you are able to contribute to the progress, even by a tiny fraction, of the "discipline" where you operate in, then my hat's off to you.
DC, I get taste is subjective and it was lame that you got bullied for a personal opinion. But this is a pretty dumb comment and right now you are kinda digging your own grave so unless you get your kicks out of trolling, my advice is to tune it down a bit.
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...very interesting .... Originally Posted by DC Cornelius
You yourself wrote in another thread about influence of John McLaughlin.
I don't know if you play under the influence of John McLaughin but I know that he copied Tal Farlow's solos.... Is it a coincidence?
A jazz musician is an artist who needs to listen to recordings of other musicians and learn all the time.
The key is the language of jazz and jazz standards....plus the history of jazz.
Who is a jazz musician?
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+1 Originally Posted by pamosmusic
And the musicians play with other musicians and learn from each other.
After all, it is enough to be interested in the history of jazz and understand how it works.
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I did. You're not wrong, Kris my friend= when I was about 13/14 years old! My infatuation was soon killed off after listening to: 'John McLaughlin: Electric Guitarist'- the album I'd been waiting to get my hands on for ages.I was truly gutted. An utter bucket of festering toe nails IMO! Same ol' licks. The compositions were awful boring crap! I do still listen to him occasionally when I see something on YouTube but nothing has changed for me, which I'm sad about.... But I feel I must emphasise. This is just a personal opinion. If some folk class these comments as trolling then so be it! Originally Posted by kris
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At the age of 13-14 I listened to The Beatles, The Rolling-Stones, Carlos Santana, E.Clapton... etc. Originally Posted by DC Cornelius
It was completely new and appealing to me.Then I fell in love with jazz.
The Mahavishnu Orchestra - was popular in the early 70s.
I liked this band very much, but I didn't even try to imitate it...It was beyond my technical capabilities.
Something enchanted me in jazz and improvisations – it is probably the creativity of this music.
From what I heard, you are more oriented in the fusion -rock stuff .... ala Scott Henderson...?
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You never trolled. All you said was you didn't like it, which is entirely your prerogative. Originally Posted by DC Cornelius
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I confess I really love John McLaughlin's album Electric Guitarist. It still sounds so fresh and so beautiful. 'Do You Hear The Voices You Left Behind' still kills me.
Also positively adore McLaughlin's work with Miles Davis.
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Yes, McLaughlin's good, he's from Yorkshire, Allan Holdsworth is from Yorkshire too. Originally Posted by James W
Is the Yorkshire environment conducive to playing the guitar very well?
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