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I left that one in because it's a key.
Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
I totally agree, it's the ear that really makes the difference, and frankly not everyone has the ear. I don't know how to teach that, or even if can be taught. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
If someone has 'tin ears' can you teach them to have golden ears?Last edited by AdroitMage; 03-17-2025 at 04:36 AM.
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03-15-2025 10:31 PM
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On this topic, this just popped into my memory banks today. An interviewer asked Pat Metheny about this years ago. He asked Pat what he would say to young jazz players trying to get into the business today because it's 'so hard to do it today, gabba blabbaa, blah blah,' etc. Pat said, 'When I did it back in the 70s, they said it was impossible, but I just had an unwavering belief in myself, so I loaded all my gear in the van and drove to wherever we had gigs.' He said, "then as more people heard us, the crowds got bigger, and the venues got bigger too." And the rest, as they say, is 'his story.'
Where do you think he would be now if he had listened to the negative Nelly's who said it was impossible?
Anyway, I hope everyone's having a beautiful day every day. Don't forget to do that.Last edited by AdroitMage; 03-16-2025 at 03:50 AM.
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Did anyone say it's impossible? I've kind of lost the thread on this thread. My understanding is that we're all agreeing you have to put the work in (ideally a massive amount of work from a young age), you have to have the drive and self belief to keep going when everything that happens is telling you to give up, you have to learn how to do all the non playing stuff, the stuff you'd ideally have a marketing manager, a roadie, a soundman, an accountant, (etc) for, you have to develop that little "something" in yourself and your music that makes it appealing to other folk, and on top of all that you need some luck here and there. Do all that and you may get one of those rare gigs that are out there these days. Keep doing it and you may get a second gig.
The world is probably full of amazing players who just didn't have the luck or gave up the week before luck was going to fall in their lap.
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Not just artists but anyone who carves out an existence doing what they feel they were born to do. No plan B. Going all-in. Not putting in the work and not having the drive and self-belief means you’ll fail. Putting in the work, having the drive and the self-belief offer zero guarantee. Necessary but not sufficient. Making a living from guitar is really, really hard. And it’s even harder if you insist on being your own vision to fruition (as opposed to playing in a cover band, teaching, etc). Apart from talent, hard work and self-belief it’s social skills that might tip the balance. People skills are crucial, including having a huge network and making use of social media.My understanding is that we're all agreeing you have to put the work in (ideally a massive amount of work from a young age), you have to have the drive and self belief to keep going when everything that happens is telling you to give up
Metheny is uniquely talented. Yes, he put in the work but he’s also a genius-level player and composer. And he has the looks. And that grin. One of a kind.
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Yep, spot on. And that vision is key. That harks back to the other points raised, such as what is success for you. What is good enough for you. For Pat Metheny it was one thing. For someone else it might be making a living with the guitar, for someone else making a living playing gigs, or just jazz gigs, or getting to be interviewed by Rick Beato. Or being lauded by other guitar players. Or being lauded by non guitar players (which is likely to be more lucrative, which, of course, is only applicable, if being lucrative is part of your personal measure of success).
One thing's for absolute sure. I should be practicing the guitar rather than sat here writing this rubbish.
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He would be here, talking about how jazz died in the 1960s. We can't use Metheny, or any musicians, as some kind of guide for what needs to be done to succeed, it's a model flawed by survivorship bias. Originally Posted by AdroitMage
Survivorship bias - Wikipedia
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One pro jazz guitarist I knew and was talking lessons from said success for him would be not having to give lessons to teens wanting to sound like Santana or Jimmy Page. Originally Posted by digger
He needed that income to pay his bills.
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He should have tried a straight day job. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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What???? Originally Posted by AllanAllen
He loved playing and was getting a fairly good amount from gigs. He had to pay to release his own CDs and on those he just broke even.
What he was trying to communicate was that he loved giving lessons to folks like me, that wanted to learn to play jazz guitar and learn standards, but not kids and teen that just wanted to learn enough to play 3 - 4 chord rock tunes.
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The jazz guitarists I've known only gave lessons to intermediate/advanced students, wasn't worth their time or the students money for them to teach beginners, there are a lot of other teachers who can do that well at a much lower cost to the student. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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And what Allan is trying to communicate is that giving lessons to kids who want to play 3-4 chord rock tunes beats slogging it out with a day job when you’d rather be playing. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
Id be inclined to agree … adults who want to play 3-4 chord rock tunes, on the other hand …… not so sure
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Teaching young people can be difficult and rewarding, but you should NEVER teach if you don't like teaching.
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Solid point. This was over 35 years ago, and he was just starting out so he didn't have many students and would take any that would come. He just had a child and needed the income. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Once he got more established, he only took advanced students.
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Preach. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Yeah, try working midnight shift at a gas station, then the beginner students might not seem so bad. Or they'd just seem tiresome in a different way
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This thread has really amused me, especially in this environment where we have dorks dismantling Affirmative Action. So when you get a day job, the only thing they're supposed to consider now is who's "most qualified," yet when I read through these comments, suddenly when it comes to becoming a musician, being "one of the very best" = " the most qualified" is suddenly not who you think has earned the right to be a musician. How hypocritical is that? People have been coming up with all sorts of 'other' reasons here that someone should be the one who is the musician other than being "the best" = most qualified musician. A totally hypocritical view in light of recent events.
Truly, I think that's because a lot of musician wannabes don't feel they are in the "one of the best" category, but they still want to be a musician, so now they want what would be in essence "musician Affirmative Action, LOL, = some 'other' criterion for being a musician rather than being one of the best = most qualified. Again, totally hypocritical in lieu of recent events.
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Cool a new and interesting way of being obnoxious.
Not that this post needs any response, but no one is saying that less qualified players should get gigs over more qualified players. They’re just saying that what makes a player qualified isn’t as narrow as “who plays the best solo.”
Now at this point, I think I’d love to hear you play.
Lay it down for us, oh qualified one.
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Hey, and I know, especially in pop music, there are plenty of artists who aren't among "the best" in terms of talent up there selling a lot of records, but that's also why there is also a large audience who reject a lot of pop music for other genres with more 'substance' musically.
So what? The industry knows there are a lot of people who know nothing, or very little, about music who will buy whatever tripe is pumped out on repeat on top 40 radio. Okay, we all know that, but, for me, that is not what I aspire to be, and I don't care how many records they sell doing that, peddling that no substance "bubble gum."
Furthermore, jazz, IS, at its best, about excellent virtuoso level musicianship, THAT is what jazz is supposed to be about, not average or run if the mill, but excellence in improvisation on a musical instrument, the kind of excellence that stands out in the crowd, like Wes, Trane, Parker, Martino, and so many others.
If you want to be a jazz musician without being in the league of "one of the best" (whatever that means) then okay, but for me, I have high standards so I don't aim for the middle of the road, I aim for excellence on my chosen musical instrument, and there's no shame in my game about that. I know THAT along with my musical ear for good melodies and my creativity will sell some albums in rock, blues, AND jazz, and I don't need "musical Affirmative Action" to do it.
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“The woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those who sang the best.” - John James Audubon Originally Posted by AdroitMage
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Great! I can't wait to hear. Originally Posted by AdroitMage
Feel free to share.
Not that I’ll be holding my breath.Last edited by pamosmusic; 03-20-2025 at 11:49 AM.
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Hopefully most can spot a phony when they see one (but not hear one since that will never happen). Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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AdroitMage,
You talk a big game behind an anonymous screen name. You are not even "all hat and no cattle" because we have not even seen your hat.
I am guessing that you are nothing more than a mediocre guitar player who enjoys belittling other guitar players to make yourself feel better about your own lack of skills.
Prove me (and the rest of us who are calling you out here) wrong.
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I don't agree; there are many beautiful bird songs. Also, singing is easy compared to becoming a player who plays a musical instrument like a virtuoso. That takes around a decade of focused study and practice according to most educated estimates around here. Originally Posted by jazzshrink
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Where is your musical creativity and imagination at?
You'll all hear me, you just won't know it's Adroit Mage. In fact, you may have already heard me, but you didn't know it was me.
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Targuit! I missed you!
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