Opinions on Frank Zappa's playing

[Zappa68]

Last night, because of this thread, I went on a bit of a Zappa dive, just to see if I could find anything I liked. Tried a couple studio albums, a couple live albums, and as usual I couldn't stand them. I don't like the snarky vocals.

However, I will put on "Shut Up and Play Your Guitar" from time to time, and I like his playing. He makes the guitar speak. As musically advanced as his composing was, his guitar playing was atavistic. That's probably why I like it.

Of course, I'm talking about my own enjoyment of Zappa. On an objective level I agree with what you wrote. His forte was composition.

But last night wasn't a complete wash... I discovered a Zappa album I liked! "Jazz From Hell" the Synclavier album with very little actual playing and no vocals. There is at least one real guitar solo, but it's actually a great electronic record. It doesn't sound like anything else.

He has plenty of instrumental albums. This isn't one of them but you can't do that on stage anymore volume 2 is one you should check out! That band could play fing anything!

[Zappa68]

His guitar playing always reminds me of teenagers (back in the day) that would noodle away at Guitar Centre type stores as though everyone needed to shut up and listen. It was pedestrian, let's be honest. Now his "persona" and visionary adventurousness, through his conceptual songwriting was way more bold and commendable, this we cannot deny. Yet his most serious, and for me, most important legacy he left us, is his rather fine, fine art (or "classical" if you will) compositions in the C20th atonal/serial tradition. I studied that shit for years and I don't care what anyone says, his works sound totally legit and in my opinion, hold up very well against his heroes (Varese, Webern etc).

That he encompassed such widely conflicting aspects (many of which are non musical) within the one body and single lifetime, makes him highly interesting on so many levels. Apart from maybe John Cale or Brian Eno, how many living Rock artists could you say that about?

I agree with your opinion of the 20th century classical music he did now the guitar center comment was a bit harsh to say the least. Your a smart guy you should see more than that in his playing. It was very creative and took chances. That in and off itself is something. Very cerebral. As one guy on here said his rhythmic vocabulary was incredible all those septuplets inside triplet grooves. He loved percussion and was a drummer once like Jaco. He always played rhythmically with said tuplets and get drummers to follow!

[Hugo Gainly]

Just decided to take the temperature of my own opinions after the discussion/dissection above and listen to a solo. First one I came up with was Willie The Pimp. It took me straight back to when I heard it on its release as a school prisoner. I don't think anyone had ever done this in a rock composition. Done what?

It's long form - new - a complete melodic solo developing by phrasal and motif self reference, i.e. composition on the fly - it just keeps building. I'm not so passionate now but I recall experiencing genuine joy at the build of the solo. Ok, it's full of Zappa techniques and maybe limitations but he did not want to be 'a jazz player' (where of course more 'special' notes are played in a completely different order). The genre rotates around blues, not surprising as there was a major country blues/electric blues resurgence at the time - and I mean BIG, (68?) not the fashionable resurgences designed to sell more magazines until the next resurgence - pentatonics and some modal stuff. Then you have to create something using that language. With an arc. I don't think it was about guitar playing, I think it was about music being played on a guitar. Can't separate Frank's playing from his composition.

I was prepared back then to give myself up to the solo and be part of its development over its course. It didn't seem as if this had been required before. It happened later on with the much mocked drum solo - the limits of current attention spans do not allow listeners to appreciate a solo and its development - they want the money shot in 8 bars. I was young and naive but I remember sitting entranced by a 20 minute drum solo by Jon Hiseman at the Bath Blues Festival in 69 or 70. Maybe jazz in Ronnie's might allow this but not at Glastonbury. I guess the leader of Jon's band must have held up 1200 fingers...before a 1200 bar solo by each of the rest of the band. Think My Funny Valentine.

Next, Son of Mr Green Genes - was this a solo or a written theme? It must have been a solo. Maybe a camel.

[twtunes]

A release called "Funky Nothingness" includes a bunch of full, unedited takes from around 1970. That, and the Hot Rats boxed set, show that many of those great solos were assembled from longer takes.

I remember a Son of Mr. Green Genes outtake that begins like the released one, but runs out of steam.

In the Funky Nothingness cuts, several versions of Chunga's Revenge incorporate good stretches. The release was clearly cut together.

In the tune Waka/Jawaka, Frank's solo gets very busy, and he transcribed his notes so he could then double them with brass overdubbed in unison.


That tune and Blessed Relief from Grand Wazoo are the only tunes where he played over changes.

[Peter C]

Fantastic, unique composer and arranger who, as a guitarist, weirdly "wouldn't have have passed the audition for his own band".

[Hugo Gainly]

The release was clearly cut together.

And that's fine, quality ebbs and flows. To me it's valid to cut out the poor stuff and try to include the good stuff. My point is the nature of the stuff. It was more of an exposition than his turn to shine. Live, of course that would not have been possible.

In the tune Waka/Jawaka, Frank's solo gets very busy, and he transcribed his notes so he could then double them with brass overdubbed in unison.

Yeah, I picked that up listening recently - I wasn't sure if he'd gone to that effort, as you say, it was bizzzeeee. I find that solo section rather uninteresting; maybe it was Frank's attempt at a genre he did not particularly enjoy. I noted the busy-ness and doubling, good to have that pointed out. I remember being quite disappointed when I bought those two albums. The tune in Waka Jawaka was great though.

That tune and Blessed Relief from Grand Wazoo are the only tunes where he played over changes.

OK. But King Kong? Who needs 'em. I love Motorhead's solo in that piece, to me it speaks far more than it plays.

[Hugo Gainly]

I'm sorry to go on, but I like FZ....

"Many years ago I got a call to do some record dates with Frank Zappa. I had never worked with him before or met him; all I knew about him was the image he had created. I decided to be funny, so I showed up at the studio in an Indian costume, no shoes, and a golf hat. Frank came up and introduced himself and complimented me on my costume. I complimented him on his. I was sorry I went through this when I saw the guitar parts - they were as difficult as any I have ever played. After struggling three hours, I went to Frank and told him how much I enjoyed his music and added that it was nothing like I expected" - from For GuitarPlayers Only - Tommy Tedesco.

I'm glad I read that as I can't stand the insecure pro burning stuff and started to form a negative opinion of TT. How this fits in with the FZ track 'sounding like shit' (Jimmy Bruno) I'm not sure though. Whatever. Out.

[jameslovestal]

I'm sorry to go on, but I like FZ....

"Many years ago I got a call to do some record dates with Frank Zappa. I had never worked with him before or met him; all I knew about him was the image he had created. I decided to be funny, so I showed up at the studio in an Indian costume, no shoes, and a golf hat. Frank came up and introduced himself and complimented me on my costume. I complimented him on his. I was sorry I went through this when I saw the guitar parts - they were as difficult as any I have ever played. After struggling three hours, I went to Frank and told him how much I enjoyed his music and added that it was nothing like I expected" - from For GuitarPlayers Only - Tommy Tedesco.

I'm glad I read that as I can't stand the insecure pro burning stuff and started to form a negative opinion of TT. How this fits in with the FZ track 'sounding like shit' (Jimmy Bruno) I'm not sure though. Whatever. Out.

I saw Tommy Tedesco in the 80s twice at Donte's in North Hollywood CA, USA. He was OK, and could play fast but I didn't find him very interesting, especially compared to the other guys I was seeing at that time like Kessel, Roberts, and Hall (and the next generation, like Howard Alden and Bruce Forman). The Los Angeles area had some great jazz guitar back in the day.

[jon t-bone]

1. JH.
2. JB.
3 = Greeny ("Then Play On" era), Santana, Zappa, Duane Allmam
Others: EC w. Cream, Blind Faith & Del and Dominoes, Rory, Terry Kath, SRV, Robin Trower, Paul Kossoff, Vernon Reid, Johnny Winter, Leslie West, Ben Harper, Michael Landau, Mike Bloomfield, Jeff Healey, Roy Buchanan, Lonnie Mack, Snowy White, Derek Trucks, Billy Gibbons, Phil Miller, Jeff Parker (Tortoise), Steve Morse, Lowell George, Peter Frampton, Mick Abrahams, John Zeigler (Voltaire), Jerrry Hahn, Mick Ronson, Phil Manzenera, Dennis Coffey, Nels Clyne (Banyan), Harvey Mandell, Wilko Johnson, Randy Jacobs, Tony McPhee, Henry Kaiser, Jesse Ed Davis, Prince, Ronnie Montrose, David Fiuczynski, Ronnnie Montrose, Clem Clempson, Tommy Bolin, Chuck Berry, Gary Moore, Tony MacAlpine...