Opinions on Frank Zappa's playing

[Bob_Ross]

I completely agree with your sentiments. But I don't think he had an inflated idea of his guitar playing, he knew it was not great, so he hired other guitarists to play his music.

But he rarely hired other guitarists to take lengthy improvised solos*...my comment had more to do with his inflated ideas about the value of his improvised guitar solos. Seriously, three full-length volumes of Shut Up And Play Your Guitar ?!?!

*Incidentally, one of the highlights of the Zappa concert I saw in 1977 was when he gave Adrian Belew a 5 minute spot where he could wail. Of course, Frank then immediately followed that with his own 10 minute spot where he could wail more.

Also, fwiw, I much prefer the albums where Frank played all of the guitar parts. He may have thought his performances were imperfect but they had an inimitable charm imho.

[supersoul]

I want to make it clear that my opinions of Frank Zappa's music are quite different -- and quite a bit more charitable -- than my opinions of Frank Zappa's guitar playing.

Last night, because of this thread, I went on a bit of a Zappa dive, just to see if I could find anything I liked. Tried a couple studio albums, a couple live albums, and as usual I couldn't stand them. I don't like the snarky vocals.

However, I will put on "Shut Up and Play Your Guitar" from time to time, and I like his playing. He makes the guitar speak. As musically advanced as his composing was, his guitar playing was atavistic. That's probably why I like it.

Of course, I'm talking about my own enjoyment of Zappa. On an objective level I agree with what you wrote. His forte was composition.

But last night wasn't a complete wash... I discovered a Zappa album I liked! "Jazz From Hell" the Synclavier album with very little actual playing and no vocals. There is at least one real guitar solo, but it's actually a great electronic record. It doesn't sound like anything else.

[WilliamScott]

Oh and that famous story of Joe and Tommy asking Zappa to play Giant Steps...what was Tommy Tedesco's most famous song? (Possibly earning him the most money...) The theme to Bonanza. He also played on the theme songs for Green Acres and Batman.

I think Neil Levang did the guitar work on Neal Hefti's Batman theme.

[Doctor Jeff]

I want to make it clear that my opinions of Frank Zappa's music are quite different -- and quite a bit more charitable -- than my opinions of Frank Zappa's guitar playing.

For the record, I believe he was a gifted composer, innovative producer, visionary bandleader, fantastically versatile, a dedicated craftsman, prolific beyond belief, and hugely influential...to me at least, but apparently to a whole crap-ton of other musicians as well.

He was also a unique guitarist...

...who probably had a far more inflated sense of his own skills as a player than were deserved.

His harmonic vocabulary was rudimentary at best. I would wager that 85% of the guitar solos he ever improvised were strict mixolydian, and for the few tunes where the band behind his solos weren't just vamping between I and bVII, they were just vamping on the I.

His melodic vocabulary was more piquant; he could, on occasion, coax some truly beautiful lines out of those all-too-familiar modes. You could sing those improvised lines, or score them for other instruments (and he often did both) and they would be archetypal melodies with a dramatic arc and a motific unity that was utterly inimitable yet brilliantly concise/compact, a true gem. As someone in this thread already noted, he could tell a story. On occasion...

Other times, he was wanking.

His rhythmic vocabulary was off-the-hook, as sophisticated -- and probably moreso -- than any other improvising guitarist who ever lived. The problem was, his technique was sloppy...and so it's a fine line between executing a perfectly-timed septuplet nested as the first partial of a half-note triplet with sloppy technique, and just effing up a riff. The guys who transcribed his guitar solos must've had the patience of saints, and were giving FZ the benefit of the doubt.

His tone, from about 1973 on, was to die for.
Prior to 1973, not so much.

Did I mention he was unique? Nobody else sounds like Frank Zappa on guitar.

If he had never touched the guitar in his life and just had been a composer and bandleader, I think he'd still be as important a figure in music as he is. If he'd only ever just been a guitar player, I think he'd be completely forgotten.

I pretty much agree with you, and agree there are times on many recordings where he’s wanking, but he also created some wonderful and iconic riffs and solos.

There are people who have incredible technical brilliance—Satriani comes to mind, and some jazz players I won’t mention—but whose solos leave you frustrated and a bit tired with all their virtuosity. Even with his limited “range”—perhaps similar to some great singers over the years we value—he could express himself like no other.

Put another way, there are a ton of great guitarists who have played with Toto or Jefferson Starship or the latest iteration of Foreigner or guested on a Steely Dan album, and unfortunately their names won’t be remembered in a decade. Zappa was unique, and I think will have a lasting legacy for guitar and composition and intellectuality.

[Doctor Jeff]

Last night, because of this thread, I went on a bit of a Zappa dive, just to see if I could find anything I liked. Tried a couple studio albums, a couple live albums, and as usual I couldn't stand them. I don't like the snarky vocals.

However, I will put on "Shut Up and Play Your Guitar" from time to time, and I like his playing. He makes the guitar speak. As musically advanced as his composing was, his guitar playing was atavistic. That's probably why I like it.

Of course, I'm talking about my own enjoyment of Zappa. On an objective level I agree with what you wrote. His forte was composition.

But last night wasn't a complete wash... I discovered a Zappa album I liked! "Jazz From Hell" the Synclavier album with very little actual playing and no vocals. There is at least one real guitar solo, but it's actually a great electronic record. It doesn't sound like anything else.

LOL I got that album when it came out—still have it—and played it a few times, then never played it again. I had great expectations, but it wasn’t Zappa the way I wanted Zappa.

He was an unbelievable multitasker with seemingly limitless energy, but the energy he put into some tech like the Synclavier was not very conducive to his musical vocabulary. (Maybe I’m wrong. Could be ripe for a reassessment.)

Also, I always liked his generic pokes at conventional white people (Brown Shoes, for instance) and uptight moralists, but he spent way too much time in his later career jousting with political windmills like Jesse Jackson. Maybe it was funnier in 1982 or whenever it came out.

I like SUAPYG quite a bit and will dust it off from time to time. 3 hours of it is a bit much, but there are some cool parts. He could do things with the guitar that not too many guitarists could, or at least not too many were doing.

He also did a thing, and I wish I had a name for it, where he would create a swirl of sound and then put his guitar in the mix—not up front, but in the middle. Doreen comes to mind. I probably listened to that song a dozen times without paying attention to the guitar, and then one herbally enhanced night in the frat house I heard ALL THE GUITAR NOTES. Not how I would have mixed it, but different and very cool.

[Cunamara]

Yabbuttt...

Frank was a groundbreaking bicycle player. Did you ever hear anyone do it before him, or as well?



Frank's greatest skill might have been deadpan comedy. Sometimes not so deadpan. But there were always about six layers going on, it seemed.

[Irishmuso]

An intriguing man. Some of his music is quite beguiling. He seems quite disdainful of his own playing and perhaps even the concept of guitar solos. Some might be surprised he bothered, in the sense that compared with his image of himself as a composer, he seems to be performing the role of 'lead guitarist' in quite an un-authentic way. If he had wanted to be regarded as an electric guitar soloist, the time that he could spend on it must have been curtailed by his composing.

[Doctor Jeff]

An intriguing man. Some of his music is quite beguiling. He seems quite disdainful of his own playing and perhaps even the concept of guitar solos. Some might be surprised he bothered, in the sense that compared with his image of himself as a composer, he seems to be performing the role of 'lead guitarist' in quite an un-authentic way. If he had wanted to be regarded as an electric guitar soloist, the time that he could spend on it must have been curtailed by his composing.

Zappa on his own guitar playing:

Everything he did he filtered through his own ironic sensibility. He has said in interviews that he never practiced in between tours.

[princeplanet]

His guitar playing always reminds me of teenagers (back in the day) that would noodle away at Guitar Centre type stores as though everyone needed to shut up and listen. It was pedestrian, let's be honest. Now his "persona" and visionary adventurousness, through his conceptual songwriting was way more bold and commendable, this we cannot deny. Yet his most serious, and for me, most important legacy he left us, is his rather fine, fine art (or "classical" if you will) compositions in the C20th atonal/serial tradition. I studied that shit for years and I don't care what anyone says, his works sound totally legit and in my opinion, hold up very well against his heroes (Varese, Webern etc).

That he encompassed such widely conflicting aspects (many of which are non musical) within the one body and single lifetime, makes him highly interesting on so many levels. Apart from maybe John Cale or Brian Eno, how many living Rock artists could you say that about?

[Hep To The Jive]

I take Zappa holistically - never any part isolated. It feels better that way to me.
The songs, arrangements, dedication, autonomy, his accompanying musicians... his irony, cynicism, sarcasm...all of it in it's entirety is the inspiration.

I love everything about this performance. Very inspiring! His guitar style, he attacks it rather than plays it, not trying to be virtuosic or awe people with his techinque or some such nonsense. But still in total control, the time feel is incredible, it's not a garage level noodling, not at all. Very rare these days, most players prioritize the finesse and robotic technical precision. The band is wow, total monsters, all of them!

Now how about Adrian Belew? His voice here is really strong, but what is his strentgh as a guitar player? How did he become a guitar hero? He was highly regarded by Frank himself and David Bowie i think.. I just don't know much about him, anyone can post his iconic moments?

[princeplanet]

....
Now how about Adrian Belew? His voice here is really strong, but what is his strentgh as a guitar player? How did he become a guitar hero? He was highly regarded by Frank himself and David Bowie i think.. I just don't know much about him, anyone can post his iconic moments?

Go to around 5.30. If you don't understand his god head status among the anti-guitar hero crowd after hearing this, you never will.

[Christian Miller]

I love everything about this performance. Very inspiring! His guitar style, he attacks it rather than plays it, not trying to be virtuosic or awe people with his techinque or some such nonsense. But still in total control, the time feel is incredible, it's not a garage level noodling, not at all. Very rare these days, most players prioritize the finesse and robotic technical precision. The band is wow, total monsters, all of them!

Now how about Adrian Belew? His voice here is really strong, but what is his strentgh as a guitar player? How did he become a guitar hero? He was highly regarded by Frank himself and David Bowie i think.. I just don't know much about him, anyone can post his iconic moments?

I’m into this

And this

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[Hep To The Jive]

thanks guys, cool! To me it sounds Adrian Belew is kinda cerebral rock style, but in a cool way. I dig that Talking Heads song.

[princeplanet]

thanks guys, cool! To me it sounds Adrian Belew is kinda cerebral rock style, but in a cool way. I dig that Talking Heads song.

Yes, totally unique style. When I was a Rocker I could copy most styles easily enough, but I found that Jeff Beck was challenging because of his unique touch and articulation. However, when it came to some of my favourite Belew solos, no-one could get close. And nor should they try - his example was an inspiration to find your own sound and style.

[Christian Miller]

thanks guys, cool! To me it sounds Adrian Belew is kinda cerebral rock style, but in a cool way. I dig that Talking Heads song.

I'm a big fan, the guy was my main guitar hero when I was in my late teens. I was a weird lad, what can I say?

He's a sonic player, IIRC I don't think he reads in fact, which is interesting given he was in Zappa's band. I think Zappa just loved his playing so much and could see he was up for working hard, so he got the gig. I think like Mike Keneally he was learning the stuff by ear (!)

I think Zappa was touched by anyone who would take the time. He was full of praise for Tina Turner's work ethic and desire to get it right (she's on backing Vox with the other Ikettes on Montana and it's a tour de force). He was really down on the professional orchestra mentality because they are very much 'clock on clock off'. I'm not sure how realistic it is for most of us mere mortals to expect others to put themselves out in this way for your music, but Zappa seems to have been great at finding people who would. I suppose writing really interesting and challenging music appeals to musicians sense of challenge!

I see similarities with people like Tigran Hamasyan, but with Tigran apparently it's all by ear and no scores (!)

[kris]

"The Mothers of Invention"....

[Hep To The Jive]

"The Mothers of Invention"....

Originally it was just supposed to be The Mothers, but in the 60's it had a very specific meaning that the promoters and record label would not go along with a name like that. So Zappa had to add something.

[supersoul]

thanks guys, cool! To me it sounds Adrian Belew is kinda cerebral rock style, but in a cool way. I dig that Talking Heads song.

I seem to remember Belew worked with David Bowie, to the point where Bowie sang a track on one of Belew's solo albums.
That's a helluva resume: Frank Zappa, King Crimson, Talking Heads, David Bowie...

[GuyBoden]

Adrian Belew, all I know is that I played this incessantly during the early 1980's:

I do remember one thing.
It took hours and hours but..
By the time I was done with it,
I was so involved, I didn't know what to think.


I carried it around with me for days and days..
Playing little games
Like not looking at it for a whole day
And then... looking at it.


To see if I still liked it.
I did.


I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat myself when under stress.


I repeat...
The more I look at it,
The more I like it.
I do think it's good.


The fact is..
No matter how closely I study it,
No matter how I take it apart,
No matter how I break it down,


It remains consistent.
I wish you were here to see it.


I like it.

(Apparently, based on his wife's thoughts about a new picture she had painted.)

[Bob_Ross]

Yet his most serious, and for me, most important legacy he left us, is his rather fine, fine art (or "classical" if you will) compositions in the C20th atonal/serial tradition. I studied that shit for years and I don't care what anyone says, his works sound totally legit and in my opinion, hold up very well against his heroes (Varese, Webern etc).

I too am a huge fan of Zappa's "serious" [sic] compositions, and always cite The Yellow Shark whenever anyone asks me to recommend a small handful of his best albums. But I do make a qualitative distinction between Zappa's works, and those of Varese and Webern. Frank was such a prolific and inspired composer that he rarely would completely absorb the implications and possibilities of any given musical technique before he would whip off a composition (or 10) that would use some aspect of that technique...which is impressive in its own right, but it leads to compositions that aren't as deep -- or that don't extract the unifying principles of a technique as thoroughly -- as those of the more revered masters.

E.g., Webern used serialism as a way to create a unique vocabulary that informed and infused every aspect of a composition; whereas Zappa used serialism as a way to tell him which note came next.

So to me Zappa's chamber music and orchestral compositions can come across as second-tier compared to Varese, Webern, Stockhausen, Boulez, Messiaen... but I readily admit, second-tier to Varese, Webern, Stockhausen, Boulez, Messiaen et al is like being in the NBA's D-League: You're still better than 98% of the athletes in the world.

[princeplanet]

I too am a huge fan of Zappa's "serious" [sic] compositions, and always cite The Yellow Shark whenever anyone asks me to recommend a small handful of his best albums. But I do make a qualitative distinction between Zappa's works, and those of Varese and Webern. Frank was such a prolific and inspired composer that he rarely would completely absorb the implications and possibilities of any given musical technique before he would whip off a composition (or 10) that would use some aspect of that technique...which is impressive in its own right, but it leads to compositions that aren't as deep -- or that don't extract the unifying principles of a technique as thoroughly -- as those of the more revered masters.

E.g., Webern used serialism as a way to create a unique vocabulary that informed and infused every aspect of a composition; whereas Zappa used serialism as a way to tell him which note came next.

So to me Zappa's chamber music and orchestral compositions can come across as second-tier compared to Varese, Webern, Stockhausen, Boulez, Messiaen... but I readily admit, second-tier to Varese, Webern, Stockhausen, Boulez, Messiaen et al is like being in the NBA's D-League: You're still better than 98% of the athletes in the world.

Yeah, that's incisive, cheers. But when I say his works "hold up well against his heroes", I certainly didn't wish to infer his abilities as a composer were on the same level! As you say, second tier to those guys is still a remarkable accomplishment for someone who dabbled in so many other things. Not only have there been no other Rockers who set foot in that world, but I'm struggling to think of any Jazz artists who have successfully crossed over. We all know Parker wanted to, but could he have done it? I'm not so sure, I think the commitment required was beyond him by '53-55. And I don't count musicians like George Shearing, George Russel, Gunther Schuller or any of the 3rd Streamers as qualifying either, Zappa made a deeper foray into serious C20th composition than all those guys, I think.

[Christian Miller]

I think Zappa is a different thing to those Europeans. He's spiritually a lot like Charles Ives, and there's a lot about Ives which is disarmingly populist, marching bands, Beethoven's fifth, wanting to paint pictures in music, stuff that's familiar made unfamiliar. I hear that spirit in Zappa's music for sure, and I think that type of thing was important to him. He really wasn't a high modernist, and he certainly wasn't sniffy about popular culture, just discerning.

While Boulez et al were seeking to build anew from the ground up.

[wolflen]

[QUOTE=GuyBoden;1400767]Adrian Belew, all I know is that I played this incessantly during the early 1980's:

I like it..too.

perhaps its just me..

this is not "rock"
It could be closer to Miles ..think not..Bitches Brew come to mind..and is THAT "jazz"

Dame the label gods..and dame them forever..marketing bastards!

[WesParker]

I was never impressed by Z, nor his ideas, nor playing style. Somewhere in the upper space he shouts 'math is awesome!', but I cannot find a room for him close to a rooms of Pat, Allan, another top 100+ names, as he has empty originality modulated high by pr.

[Hep To The Jive]

I was never impressed by Z, nor his ideas, nor playing style. Somewhere in the upper space he shouts 'math is awesome!', but I cannot find a room for him close to a rooms of Pat, Allan, another top 100+ names, as he has empty originality modulated high by pr.

Yea yea, like mr Zappa would answer, Shut Up And Play yer guitar ))