Opinions on Frank Zappa's playing

[jameslovestal]

I was never impressed by Z, nor his ideas, nor playing style. Somewhere in the upper space he shouts 'math is awesome!', but I cannot find a room for him close to a rooms of Pat, Allan, another top 100+ names, as he has empty originality modulated high by pr.

As a camp act Zappa could be entertaining.

[Doctor Jeff]

I seem to remember Belew worked with David Bowie, to the point where Bowie sang a track on one of Belew's solo albums.
That's a helluva resume: Frank Zappa, King Crimson, Talking Heads, David Bowie...

Dude, dude, dude…

It is well known (well to those of us who follow these things) that Belew was picked up by Zappa after seeing him play at a bar in Nashville. (If you’ve never been to Nashville—on any given night there are 75-100 GREAT guitarists out there playing, hoping to make it big.) He toured with Zappa, then one night Bowie caught his performance and chatted with Belew. Next thing that happened, Zappa confronted Bowie about stealing his guitarist.

Zappa was rather cold and sarcastic to Belew on the tour after that.

Belew went and played with Bowie, met Eno, played with Talking Heads, then King Crimson, etc.

Belew said that he thought he had permanently pissed off Zappa, but when Zappa was ailing Belew went to visit him, and they had an emotional reunion.

This is life. The way stuff happens. A random night at a bar in Nashville, and then next thing you’re playing with FZ and then David Bowie and Talking Heads and King Crimson.

I have seen Belew with Zappa, then Talking Heads, then King Crimson. Lovely memories of my youth.

[Cunamara]

From the old rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz newsgroup:

Frank Zappa, Joe Pass (Tommy Tedesco)

My favorite Joe Pass story is the Frank Zappa saga. I had read in many
publications about Frank Zappa that said he was a gifted jazz
guitarist, one of the best in the world. I had a problem with this
propaganda because on his recordings he played very lack luster rock
and roll solos.

Joe and Tommy Tedesco were doing a NAMM show in Anaheim California in
the early 1980s. For the folks who do not know who Tommy Tedesco was,
most of all the TV themes and movie scores, with guitar, Tommy Tedesco
played them all from the 1950s through the 1970s. He was the busiest
session guitarist in Hollywood at this time always getting "First
Call." Aside from these accomplishments, Tommy was a great jazz
guitarist also.

The story goes like this according to Joe Pass and I'm paraphrasing:
"Tommy and I were both very excited to hear the Frank Zappa would be
gracing our small stage that day at the NAMM show." Joe went on to say
"In fact I was nervous, my palms were sweating, I had read and heard
that this man was one of the greatest guitarists and composers of all
time, like a modern day Mozart."

"We played a set, we waited, no Zappa, we played another set, still no
Zappa. By this time, the suspense was killing both Tedesco and
myself," (myself meaning Joe Pass.)

"At last, we see a dark haired man wearing a black long cape
surrounded by a flock of worshipers coming toward our stage. We had to
stop playing because there was complete chaos around our booth as
Zappa was signing autographs and his fans were trying to touch his
garment."

"After an hour of worship and autographs, he picks up a guitar and
bangs out a couple of loud bar chords. Zappa turns to Tommy and asks,
'What do you guys what to play?'" Joe Pass started to rattle off tunes
like Giant Steps, a John Coltrane classic, hey, Joe said, "we figured
this Zappa guy is the best, lets play the most demanding music
possible."

"After requesting more then two dozen standards, we realized this guy
couldn't play any standards, not one. We ended up playing a TOO loud
12 bar blues, that's all Frank could play. It was pathetic."

Both Tommy Tedesco and Joe Pass decided to take a very long break and
escape, outside at least until Zappa left.

Now, having posted that there is a Jimmy Bruno story about going to dinner with Tedesco, Pass, Pisano, Zappa, etc. The photograph shows Frank and Joe sitting next to each other, clearly sharing a laugh and having a good time. So I don't know how much creedence to put in the above story.

[Litterick]

He wasn't a jazz guitarist. Why did they expect him to know jazz standards?

[jameslovestal]

Dude, dude, dude…

It is well known (well to those of us who follow these things) that Belew was picked up by Zappa after seeing him play at a bar in Nashville. (If you’ve never been to Nashville—on any given night there are 75-100 GREAT guitarists out there playing, hoping to make it big.)

Your use of "GREAT" (especially the caps, which implies really "great"), in this context really degrades the term from a percentile basis. E.g. how many guitar players, period, are playing on any given night in Nashville? E.g. if even more than 10% are "GREAT", that sounds like above-average to me.

[pamosmusic]

Your use of "GREAT" (especially the caps, which implies really "great"), in this context really degrades the term from a percentile basis. E.g. how many guitar players, period, are playing on any given night in Nashville? E.g. if even more than 10% are "GREAT", that sounds like above-average to me.

I mean .... probably 6 or 7 at the Opry alone. Wouldn't have much trouble believing that there are 75-100 out in Nashville every night.

Great? dunno.

But guitarists are a dime a dozen in Nashville so there isn't much room for hacks out there.

[Cunamara]

He wasn't a jazz guitarist. Why did they expect him to know jazz standards?

Because they were jazz guitarists and that is the lingua franca of jazz. However, according to Jimmy, Frank played "Lover Man" with him and was able to make the changes. So I dunno. Two viewpoints that don't quite match up.

[Cunamara]

Nashville is like New York City, except for country/rock/blues rather than jazz (although I bet there's a country/rock/blues scene in New York City, too, which I never hear about because I'm a jazz fan). You might be the hotshot in your local area, but you go there and run into a wall of extremely formidable players. You either level up or go home with your tail between your legs.

[Bob_Ross]

It is well known (well to those of us who follow these things) that Belew was picked up by Zappa after seeing him play at a bar in Nashville. (If you’ve never been to Nashville—on any given night there are 75-100 GREAT guitarists out there playing, hoping to make it big.)

We are officially into Thread Drift territory with all the Adrian Belew stuff, but fwiw the most impressive part to me about the Zappa-Hears-Belew-In-A-Bar-Band-In-Nashville story is that Adrian Belew was playing drums in that band at that time.

It was Belew's singing that attracted/interested Zappa enough to have a conversation with him... only at that point did FZ learn that Adrian also played guitar.

[Sam Sherry]

Nashville is like New York City, except for country/rock/blues rather than jazz . . . You either level up or go home with your tail between your legs.

In Nayushville the finest guitarists in the world deliver your pizza.

In New York the finest saxophonists in the world deliver your pizza.

+ + +

I grew up listening to Zappa and still treasure this piece. The band is tight as can be and the writing has as much counterpoint as FZ ever had (which is a good thing). IMO the piece shows the balance between self-deprecating humor ('Hah! You're still listening!') and ego-driven pride-in-craft ('Because I can!') which characterizes much of FZ's writing.

Beyond that, it features what is unquestionably the finest trombone solo ever recorded on a rock album, then a top-rate turn from Mr. George Duke. You will note that FZ elects not to follow them with a guitar solo.

Hit it, Mothers:

[princeplanet]

.... it features what is unquestionably the finest trombone solo ever recorded on a rock album, then a top-rate turn from Mr. George Duke. ...

I think you mean the only trombone solo ever recorded on a Rock album...?

[Christian Miller]

Dude, dude, dude…

It is well known (well to those of us who follow these things) that Belew was picked up by Zappa after seeing him play at a bar in Nashville. (If you’ve never been to Nashville—on any given night there are 75-100 GREAT guitarists out there playing, hoping to make it big.) He toured with Zappa, then one night Bowie caught his performance and chatted with Belew. Next thing that happened, Zappa confronted Bowie about stealing his guitarist.

Zappa was rather cold and sarcastic to Belew on the tour after that.

Belew went and played with Bowie, met Eno, played with Talking Heads, then King Crimson, etc.

Belew said that he thought he had permanently pissed off Zappa, but when Zappa was ailing Belew went to visit him, and they had an emotional reunion.

This is life. The way stuff happens. A random night at a bar in Nashville, and then next thing you’re playing with FZ and then David Bowie and Talking Heads and King Crimson.

I have seen Belew with Zappa, then Talking Heads, then King Crimson. Lovely memories of my youth.

Zappa clearly adored Adrian's playing (and singing by the sounds of it). I'm glad they made it up...

[Doctor Jeff]

We are officially into Thread Drift territory with all the Adrian Belew stuff, but fwiw the most impressive part to me about the Zappa-Hears-Belew-In-A-Bar-Band-In-Nashville story is that Adrian Belew was playing drums in that band at that time.

It was Belew's singing that attracted/interested Zappa enough to have a conversation with him... only at that point did FZ learn that Adrian also played guitar.

That’s funny. I don’t remember that part. Adrian posted the whole story on FB a few years ago. I think it was during the COVID lull, and he was bored, so he told stories…very interesting stories!

Yes he’s a good drummer. He played drums on some Bowie tracks on Lodger, if I recall correctly.

[GregKblues]

In Nayushville the finest guitarists in the world deliver your pizza.

In New York the finest saxophonists in the world deliver your pizza.

+ + +

I grew up listening to Zappa and still treasure this piece. The band is tight as can be and the writing has as much counterpoint as FZ ever had (which is a good thing). IMO the piece shows the balance between self-deprecating humor ('Hah! You're still listening!') and ego-driven pride-in-craft ('Because I can!') which characterizes much of FZ's writing.

Beyond that, it features what is unquestionably the finest trombone solo ever recorded on a rock album, then a top-rate turn from Mr. George Duke. You will note that FZ elects not to follow them with a guitar solo.

Hit it, Mothers:

Always loved this record

[Django Johnson]

I always considered Zappa a novelty act. I never saw what the big deal was.

[Doctor Jeff]

I always considered Zappa a novelty act. I never saw what the big deal was.

Oh man, I don't know where to start...

[jameslovestal]

Oh man, I don't know where to start...

I posted something similar to this: as a camp act I found Zappa entertaining.

Are fans of jazz music required to like Zappa in your world?

[Litterick]

Frank Zappa jammed in 1969 with Philly Joe Jones, Earl Freeman, Louis Maholo, John Dyani, Grachan Moncur III and Archie Shepp – at the Amougies festival in Belgium. Zappa was compere of the festival. He played with several performers, including Pink Floyd, Caravan and Soft Machine.

The photograph by Jacques Bisceglia is taken from the January 1970 issue of Downbeat.

[Doctor Jeff]

I posted something similar to this: as a camp act I found Zappa entertaining.

Are fans of jazz music required to like Zappa in your world?

Of course not. But listen to some of his more jazz-adjacent recordings like The Grand Wazoo. If you don’t like Zappa’s version of jazz on that one, you won’t like any Zappa. Then if you’re more fusion-oriented, listen to One Size Fits All, Apostrophe and Overnite Sensation.

Or listen to Hot Rats and Jean-Luc Ponty’s album King Kong: JLP Plays the Music of Frank Zappa.

Regardless of whether it’s your type of jazz, at least in the rock arena there was no one playing more complicated instrumental music than FZ. That’s why so many jazz luminaries lined up to play with him, or at least guest on an album.

Is it jazz? Good question, but that’s not the question. Is it good? Mostly killer, no filler.

[wolflen]

I always considered Zappa a novelty act. I never saw what the big deal was.

Novelty act..really..something like Spike Jones perhaps?

In an interview..Frank described himself as a businessman..in that regard
I find him a template of success.

As an aside..on this site which is dedicated to mostly "traditional" jazz guitar..many members are fairly familiar with the large body of
Zappas work and for the most part respectful of it in the body of 68+ posts.

[SOLR]

How about "an opinion on Frank Zappa's view of the political future in the US"


https://www.facebook.com/reel/3097795703695113

S

[Mick-7]

How about "an opinion on Frank Zappa's view of the political future in the US"


https://www.facebook.com/reel/3097795703695113

S

He got that right, christo-fascism is definitely a going concern now. Of course they're not real Christians, what they espouse is the direct opposite of Christ's teachings.

[Django Johnson]

[Zappa68]

But he rarely hired other guitarists to take lengthy improvised solos*...my comment had more to do with his inflated ideas about the value of his improvised guitar solos. Seriously, three full-length volumes of Shut Up And Play Your Guitar ?!?!

*Incidentally, one of the highlights of the Zappa concert I saw in 1977 was when he gave Adrian Belew a 5 minute spot where he could wail. Of course, Frank then immediately followed that with his own 10 minute spot where he could wail more.

Also, fwiw, I much prefer the albums where Frank played all of the guitar parts. He may have thought his performances were imperfect but they had an inimitable charm imho.

To be fair he made the guitar instrumental albums because of a demand for them from a select group of his fans. Frank himself said he'd never wanna sit thru something like that from anybody lol. To be fair a Zappa fan is very diverse. Most are divided into different groups that like different parts of his music. Most people don't like it all that's a rare breed indeed! Even though I happen to be one of those people. You probably have to really dig dadaism! Oh and the guy who said Franks rhythm vocabulary was off the charts is one smart cat!

[Zappa68]

I want to make it clear that my opinions of Frank Zappa's music are quite different -- and quite a bit more charitable -- than my opinions of Frank Zappa's guitar playing.

For the record, I believe he was a gifted composer, innovative producer, visionary bandleader, fantastically versatile, a dedicated craftsman, prolific beyond belief, and hugely influential...to me at least, but apparently to a whole crap-ton of other musicians as well.

He was also a unique guitarist...

...who probably had a far more inflated sense of his own skills as a player than were deserved.

His harmonic vocabulary was rudimentary at best. I would wager that 85% of the guitar solos he ever improvised were strict mixolydian, and for the few tunes where the band behind his solos weren't just vamping between I and bVII, they were just vamping on the I.

His melodic vocabulary was more piquant; he could, on occasion, coax some truly beautiful lines out of those all-too-familiar modes. You could sing those improvised lines, or score them for other instruments (and he often did both) and they would be archetypal melodies with a dramatic arc and a motific unity that was utterly inimitable yet brilliantly concise/compact, a true gem. As someone in this thread already noted, he could tell a story. On occasion...

Other times, he was wanking.

His rhythmic vocabulary was off-the-hook, as sophisticated -- and probably moreso -- than any other improvising guitarist who ever lived. The problem was, his technique was sloppy...and so it's a fine line between executing a perfectly-timed septuplet nested as the first partial of a half-note triplet with sloppy technique, and just effing up a riff. The guys who transcribed his guitar solos must've had the patience of saints, and were giving FZ the benefit of the doubt.

His tone, from about 1973 on, was to die for.
Prior to 1973, not so much.

Did I mention he was unique? Nobody else sounds like Frank Zappa on guitar.

If he had never touched the guitar in his life and just had been a composer and bandleader, I think he'd still be as important a figure in music as he is. If he'd only ever just been a guitar player, I think he'd be completely forgotten.

Your sentiments/analysis is very spot on especially the rhythm part. Now Frank was a workaholic but on his music writing and recording mostly. He didn't spend much time practicing. He wouldn't even touch the guitar until he was about to go on the road then he'd shed like crazy to try and callose back up. He didn't walk around with his instrument constantly like Jaco or Bird. They say Hendrix would cook with his guitar strapped around his shoulders!