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I don’t really know how to carry forward a discussion with someone who isn’t sure how the literal notes he’s playing could be related to the key he’s playing the tune in.
Enjoy that feeling that comes with being the only person in the world who’s right.
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10-13-2024 09:37 PM
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I guess I just have a pedestrian ear, but ...
Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Because So What is generally considered to be played in a Dorian mode.
Dorian being the second mode of the major scale.
C being the second degree of the Bb major scale.
Bb major having two flats. So actually everyone but you has been suggesting that Grant is playing in that key.
(though it’s perhaps also relevant that if the key signature were that important than the Omnibook would be telling us that every tune Charlie Parker ever played was in C.)
The way you're using "tonic and dominant" in what is a modal melody doesn't really track either. We've already established that Grant is playing the melody up a fourth from what we'd expect, based on the harmony. But they're all clearly playing over a Cm/Dbm thing in the solos.Look at the original Dm score. Listen to the original So What on KoB - that last note played by GG throughout the head is only played by Chambers in the second and fourth reiterations of the line. The highest note in that line in the original is a D, which is the tonic because the tune is being played in D minor. The highest note in that riff played by GG is an F - because he's playing it in F.Last edited by pamosmusic; 10-14-2024 at 12:47 AM.
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Well ... I guess if you can't be bothered to go over the whole solo, I suppose I could say again that it’s the opening. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
And again, you've been arguing that Grant isn’t playing in the original Dorian mode but you're missing the part where a Bb scale and a C Dorian mode contain the same notes.
This is typical of tonic minor. (Also the 14th is a B natural but I digress)But you've peppered your transcribing with B naturals and B flats - natural in 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th and 13th bars, but flat in the 1st, 12th and 14th. And you think this is a "straight up Cm"?
And I did note that the phrase with the Bb in it was the one that didn’t fit the tonic minor vibe.
also I didn’t “pepper my transcription” with those notes. Grant peppered his solo with them and I wrote them down.
(Me: I don’t know how to continue this argument.
Also me: [continues arguing]
I know I know I know I know. If It makes you all feel better I’m like this in person too.)Last edited by pamosmusic; 10-14-2024 at 12:42 AM.
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Usually I prefer Wes to Grant but I have to like Grant on this one, despite the "wrong key", the displaced non-cadence, the bass player sounding the major 3rd on the main motif... (anyone notice that?). This is a playful song meant to be played playfully. GG has a perkier approach that I like for this.
We do it in Dm; I like to play "Dm11" (as rootless G13sus4), D7sus4 (Bb Lyd Dom), quartal chords... melodic ideas moving through parts of D Dorian, Ab WH dim, G Lyd Dom... that's just in the "D Dorian section".
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djg -
Could you do Wes' solo without the backing? It's quite short.
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C dorian has two flats. i'm out. good luck, buddy. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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The above discussion reminds me of the ‘is the dress blue’ controversy a few years ago.
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I'm not sure exactly what chord the piano is playing in the Grant Green clip but playing around for 5 mins I found Eb6/9 or Cmadd11 (11 X 10 10 8 X) to be a good fit*, or one I may use at some time anyway. Green is in Cm and his lines are C Dorian-blues + a bit of magic.
*Edit: actually, leaving out the 7 from the "habitual" quartal chord voicing and putting the 3 on the bottom does give an interesting colour (to my ears), obviously depending on what's going on around it.Last edited by Peter C; 10-14-2024 at 06:51 AM.
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I do like the Grant version. He can do everything wrong and still be better at music than a thousand note perfect jazz school virtuosi in my book. He's just got style.
I'm not sure if I'm sufficiently motivated to check out one of Grant's lesser solos to prove people wrong on the internet (I know, what's happened to me) but there does seem to be some basic issues with music theory here...
Anyway peak JGO.
If it were up to me I'd go with a null key signature for this one, but if you have to put you could justify either two or three flats depending on your flavour.
BTW did you know you often see modal key signatures in original Bach scores etc, for instance G minor with one flat.... SHUT UP CHRISTIAN NO ONE CARES.
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Actually that is quite interesting. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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They didn’t conceptualise key the way we do today. Originally Posted by grahambop
It’s kind of complicated and I don’t really understand all of it, but I gather that although they weren’t writing modal music they kind of conceptually seemed to have the modes in mind, or more correctly, the old hexachordal solfeggio which had been in use since the Middle Ages and had its own logic different to the solfege system we use today.
For instance the minor scale always starts on Re, not La as one might expect today.
It’s strange. I really struggle to get my head around it ngl.
Heres a thread about it
https://www.reddit.com/r/musictheory...tury_editions/
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 10-14-2024 at 07:33 AM.
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Except that you couldn’t transcribe the dress and find out exactly what notes Grant Green was playing when he wore it. Or whatever the heck. Originally Posted by grahambop
Again if we were like …. I dunno sounds kind of F7-ish more than Cm-ish … I would be like yeah. Dress is blue controversy.
But we’re talking about Grant playing in the relative major of the original key or something? You can literally just write the notes down and know that’s not what’s going on.
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I hear C Dorian on the Grant Green version. Kenny Drew is playing a chord that's something like x 6 7 7 6 x, which is the upper extensions of C Dorian. The bass plays in C (he starts his solo on a C note, not that that matters). At the end of each of the 8 bar sections, the main riff holds the G (or Ab for the B section), which sounds like a held 5th to me.
Last edited by supersoul; 10-14-2024 at 07:59 AM.
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Or…. Graham is a blue (or white) dress fundamentalist Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Innit funny the way Joe Henderson can play 6 on minor and not sound dominant. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Hey it’s none of your business what dresses I wear. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Yep modes kind of have different flavors within themselves too. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Grant’s version is a bit weird though, I can see where the confusion could come from. He is definitely playing the actual theme incorrectly for Cm, he has transposed it as if it’s in Fm. Also Kenny Drew is playing a chord voicing which does not strongly outline Cm to my ear. It makes it sound more like F13. But it’s not F major, I agree. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
If Kenny Drew had played quartal chords like the original, it would probably have made the minor key clearer.
However the solos line up ok with Cm and Dbm.
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Yeah it’s very Cm6/9. Originally Posted by grahambop
but decidedly not accidentally the relative major of the original Dm
My suspicion earlier was that nervershouldhavesoldit was trying to say it vibes F7 rather than Cm, and that he misspoke. I’m not sure why “accidental one flat Fmaj relative major of the original key” is where we landed though.
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You are correct - it definitely vibes (whatever that means) F7. That's because he plays the head in F major - the answering chords to the head's repeated phrase are F major / F# major chords. He was a simple player, and I have no doubt that he intended it to sound just like it does. Green was not an educated musician. He knew nothing of theory and couldn't have discussed any of this if he wanted to (which I'm sure he didn't). Throughout his career, he simplified standard lines, chords, changes, and rhythmic patterns - and I think it's because he simply didn't know or care about the minutiae under the microscope in this thread. My main point was / is simply that the head is played in F major. How he played his solos is not relevant to this question. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Yes, a large part of his soloing lines up with Cm and Dbm, just as Wes wove many solos around 7ths, 9ths, and 11ths (both flatted and natural) while playing over the 1. Transcribe those WM solos and they "line up" with Vm too. But GG wasn't "playing" a Dorian mode, he was playing what he heard and felt and it happened to fall into this pattern. He had no idea what a Dorian mode was - he was almost certainly just playing a synthesis of what he'd heard Miles play and what he felt. And I have no doubt that the head felt right to him with F as the tonal center.
Criticisms of my knowledge base apart, simply transcribing 14 bars of a solo with no key signature and all sharps & flats entered as accidentals is a nice exercise, but it's irrelevant to the question of where he played the head. As for my criticisms of your choice of notation, the key signature most would use for music written in C Dorian is 2 flats, to minimize the number of accidentals and to convey more clearly to the player that the tonal center is C and the mode is Dorian. But there are many alternatives for choosing a key signature for modal music. Some would, as you did, leave no key signature and indicate every accidental. Far more would choose the signature that minimizes the number of accidentals needed. This is very common in non-Western music. You might want to study up on writing modal music to better understand what I said.
I think this thread is a perfect example of overanalysis. Green's playing was like his knowledge of music. It was not complex or theoretically sophisticated. Forcing his playing into theoretical constructs of which he was entirely unaware seems to me to be pushing round pegs into square holes - they'll go in if forced, but imperfectly. I've listened to a lot of GG over 60 years. I thought little of his playing when he first hit the scene, largely because I was disdainful of the simplicity and I heard the way he deviated from Wes, Tal, Barney, Howard, et al as compromise because he wasn't "good enough" to play the way they did. I came back to him in recent years and reexamined how I felt. I came to realize that he was playing what he heard and felt, and it was pure in its own way.
To me, trying to cram his concepts into standard theory is wrong. He was a different kind of player whose simplicity of thought and perception shaped his playing. I certainly understand him a lot better now than I did in the '60s, and I think I'm now able to hear and understand what he played the way he did. I think he played the head in F major and pushed his sidemen to go along (which they did to varying degrees, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread). Everyone's entitled to an opinion and that's mine.
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Don’t think anyone ever disagreed that he was playing the head up a fourth. Doesn’t make it F major. Next time you find a Cm in your F major scale, call me. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
But also remember you said this:Criticisms of my knowledge base apart, simply transcribing 14 bars of a solo with no key signature and all sharps & flats entered as accidentals is a nice exercise, but it's irrelevant to the question of where he played the head. As for my criticisms of your choice of notation, the key signature most would use for music written in C Dorian is 2 flats, to minimize the number of accidentals and to convey more clearly to the player that the tonal center is C and the mode is Dorian. But there are many alternatives for choosing a key signature for modal music. Some would, as you did, leave no key signature and indicate every accidental. Far more would choose the signature that minimizes the number of accidentals needed. This is very common in non-Western music. You might want to study up on writing modal music to better understand what I said.
So I was literally transcribing the measures you were referring to. They are not F major.The head and first solo choruses sure sound like F major to me.
Also where you said this:
andI have no idea what that's supposed to be or how it relates to the discussion of the key in which GG is playing So What. That score snippet is in 2 flats, which puts it in either Bb major or G minor - but no one has suggested that GG is playing in either of those keys.
So with all due respect, you either expressed yourself very very poorly earlier, or you were wrong.Look at the notes - they're from a straight Bb scale. I'm not sure whether you simply got sloppy or actually heard what you wrote - and I'm not going to go over the entire solo note by note to find out.
Yeah I didn’t over analyze it. I just listened to it and transcribed the notes he plays, so that’s why I’ve been saying his vocabulary looks more like he’s playing tonic minor stuff than someone who’s playing modal stuff the way Coltrane would’ve thought about it. But it’s not F major. I would be inclined to think “over analysis” was something more like speculating about his state of mind and popping off with this sort of thing:I think this thread is a perfect example of overanalysis. Green's playing was like his knowledge of music. It was not complex or theoretically sophisticated. Forcing his playing into theoretical constructs of which he was entirely unaware seems to me to be pushing round pegs into square holes - they'll go in if forced, but imperfectly. I've listened to a lot of GG over 60 years. I thought little of his playing when he first hit the scene, largely because I was disdainful of the simplicity and I heard the way he deviated from Wes, Tal, Barney, Howard, et al as compromise because he wasn't "good enough" to play the way they did. I came back to him in recent years and reexamined how I felt. I came to realize that he was playing what he heard and felt, and it was pure in its own way.
and for what it’s worth …I think he’s playing it in F major, which is the relative major of Dm, which is the original key. I assume Green got to F major by confusing, mistaking, or cleverly / innocently substituting relative major for minor in the same key signature (1 flat).
I don’t think you mean F major one flat, here. I think you mean F7, two flats. Which is just a difference in center of gravity, and totally subjective and not the result of Grant being a goober.To me, trying to cram his concepts into standard theory is wrong. He was a different kind of player whose simplicity of thought and perception shaped his playing. I certainly understand him a lot better now than I did in the '60s, and I think I'm now able to hear and understand what he played the way he did. I think he played the head in F major and pushed his sidemen to go along (which they did to varying degrees, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread). Everyone's entitled to an opinion and that's mineLast edited by pamosmusic; 10-14-2024 at 10:40 AM.
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I'm with NeverShould on this one. The piano is playing what definitely sound like F6/C and F#6/C# chords all through the head at the beginning. Yes, the guitar and bass are playing Cm runs, but the piano is pretty well outlining F major and F#major chords. I guess maybe it comes down to which instrument you hear as defining the chord center. Since only the piano is playing chords, that's what influences me.
Yes, I'm aware that Dm7 has the same notes, but what is Dm doing with Cm runs? Whatever happened to you can play any note over any chord?
Here is just the piano. It definitely is starting with an F6 (spelled out middle C - A - C - D - F):
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Clearly it's a C-6/9add11 without the third. (add sarcasm)
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C Dorian mode Originally Posted by Ukena
C Eb G Bb D F A C
To consider a modal tune to be a one chord tune is a mistake.
Every sequence of notes in the mode is available. Often sorted into chord pairs … one of the most common ways to outline a modal sound is by using the two major triads a whole step apart in the major scale (that’s Eb and F in a mode with two flats). But how does one distinguish Eb and F used to outline a C dorian mode as opposed to Eb Lydian or whatever?
The bass and the improviser. So when you say the bass and soloist are playing very Cm stuff, you’re answering the question.
In this tune, the pianist first leans more heavily on the F sound than the Eb sound which makes it more ambiguous and less “brooding minor.” But the reason you’d choose a Dorian mode over a straight up minor is that ambiguity.
It is objectively and decidedly not in F major, one flat, relative major of D minor. That is not theoretical nit-picking or ivory tower bullsh**. It is a literal fact of the pitches the musicians play in the recording. There is no E natural anywhere. E flats galore.
I mentioned earlier that a more useful way of thinking about this is not about how F major sounds different than C minor, or about F7 and Cm, but about the way that a Dorian modal vamp like Oye Como Va (ii minor to V major of the parent scale, the two chords in question here) sounds very different than a Dorian modal vamp like So What. These sounds contain multitudes. And that ambiguity is aided by the way Grant is playing … which is more like what you’d expect in a tonic minor vamp like Softly than in a modal tune.
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Sing C... it is home/tonic during the A sections. That's what I go on.
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