Two Sides of One Coin: “So What” Grant Green/Wes Montgomery

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

man, that is some weird analysis. let's see:

Grant actually plays the piece in Cm. but he seems to have forgotten how the head goes. so he plays the head in Fm over the Cm. the chord in the background is actually a sus chord. call it F7sus or Cm11/F if you want. so the only real difference is the botched theme and the lack of those two quartal chords in the theme. which i would hesitate to call a two chord sequence

I don’t think he’s playing it in a minor key. Listen to the bass line for confirmation - it’s in F major. Does anybody else hear it as Cm?

The 2 chord sequence (or cadence or whatever you want to call it) in the head is essential to the feel of the tune. Replacing it with a simple repeat of the tonic (especially played in the relative major of the original key) makes it sound to me like a simplified version you might find in a book called “Famous Jazz Tunes Arranged for Beginners”.

[djg]

I don’t think he’s playing it in a minor key. Listen to the bass line for confirmation - it’s in F major. Does anybody else hear it as Cm?

The 2 chord sequence (or cadence or whatever you want to call it) in the head is essential to the feel of the tune. Replacing it with a simple repeat of the tonic (especially played in the relative major of the original key) makes it sound to me like a simplified version you might find in a book called “Famous Jazz Tunes Arranged for Beginners”.

i dont want to argue, but this is not up for debate. bass outlines Cm, piano comps Cm, guitar plays Cm. i'm too lazy to write it out. if you cant hear it and dont believe me, ask one of my esteemed collegues with good ears like christian, PMB or wintermoon. you'll get the same answer every time.

here is his version in Dm. if you listen to his solo you will find all the ideas from the Cm version in Dm. i#ll be happy to go on skype with you and demonstrate you each and ever lick. but you can try yourself. take the Cm version. start on f and play the bebop dominant down. then play the f major scale down. bebop dominant fits (because it is C dorian with a guide tone) Fmaj does not fit because the E sticks out like a sore thumb. as it should be since the underlying chord is Cm. try to hang on the the E on the first version. you cant. QED. the fitting maj chord is actually Ebmaj#11. try it. that is also what wes does on his version.

[pamosmusic]

i dont want to argue, but this is not up for debate. bass outlines Cm, piano comps Cm, guitar plays Cm. i'm too lazy to write it out. if you cant hear it and dont believe me, ask one of my esteemed collegues with good ears like christian, PMB or wintermoon. you'll get the same answer every time.

here is his version in Dm. if you listen to his solo you will find all the ideas from the Cm version in Dm. i#ll be happy to go on skype with you and demonstrate you each and ever lick. but you can try yourself. take the Cm version. start on f and play the bebop dominant down. then play the f major scale down. bebop dominant fits (because it is C dorian with a guide tone) Fmaj does not fit because the E sticks out like a sore thumb. as it should be since the underlying chord is Cm. QED

I am one of your colleagues with pedestrian ears, I suppose, but it’s definitely Cm. The chords have a minor 6/9 vibe which can feel Dorian in a different way than that quartal pair in the original but is still very Dorian.

To my (pedestrian) ear the main difference I hear is that Grant is using a bit more tonic minor vocabulary than you’d expect from the usual modal kind of thing. Feels a bit more Dorian over the B sections generally, but especially over the As there’s some ambiguity between that Dorian thing and the tonic minor stuff. That’s not really terribly weird for this time period with the whole “modal” thing being relatively new and there not really being a lot of rules surrounding it, Miles’s rules for the KOB band notwithstanding.

I am a bit lost on the “F major” which I’m assuming is relating it to D minor, so I’ll give benefit of the doubt and transpose nevershouldhavesoldits analysis down a whole step. I still don’t get it though.

I don’t know.

I probably prefer Wes’s but this one just doesn’t sound all that weird to me.

EDIT: actually maybe the F major is in reference to F13 which would be an inversion of the Cm6/9? That’s sort of what I meant where it can feel Dorian in a somewhat different way than the quartal voicings in the original. It’s a little bit more of a lighter, more open sound, with the quartals being darker to me but that’s purely subjective. The bass is still walking minor.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

The head and first solo choruses sure sound like F major to me. He does ramble through Cm starting after 2 minutes - but there's neither rhyme nor reason to his voicings, so I can't figure out what he was trying to do. And he returns to F major when going back to the head before ending. Interestingly, Kenny Drew seems to have tried to reintroduce the two chord hook in his comping behind Tucker's solo. Drew brings some of the feel of the original to the tune in several places, but to me it clearly starts and ends in F major as I hear GG playing it.

The head is a C minor scale leading to an F, which may be why some are hearing the tune a being played in Cm. But to my ears, the chord figure is clearly 2 shots of F maj with what I think added 9th and/or 6th in various places.

[mr. beaumont]

I hear Grant lean into quite a few m/maj7 ideas, which definitely changes the flavor.

Actually, it's really growing on me...but i do miss the "so what" chord tag in the head.

[pamosmusic]

The head and first solo choruses sure sound like F major to me. He does ramble through Cm starting after 2 minutes - but there's neither rhyme nor reason to his voicings, so I can't figure out what he was trying to do. And he returns to F major when going back to the head before ending. INterestingly, Kenny Drew seems to have tried to reintroduce the two chord hook in his comping behind Tucker's solo. Drew brings some of the feel of the original to the tune in several places, but to me it clearly starts and ends in F major as I hear GG playing it.

Man I think you need to transcribe this.

Im not sitting here with a guitar, but the first 16 are absolutely classic GG minor licks in the appropriate key.

And since I’m reading Cm and F major in the same post now, I think some clarification is in order. You were talking about relative major in your last (jazz tunes for beginners). Are you talking about the key of F major? Which isn’t the relative major of Cm, obviously. Do you mean Eb? Or F dominant? Or like … one flat F major. If the latter than you might need to point me to the E naturals you’re hearing over that C min.

[djg]

btw, the last lick is called the "long but not forgotten" lick. the second one is the same as the starting lick on grants other version"two for one". the first one is of course Ebmaj/Cm9 with a double approach to the Eb. classic stuff that wes would use in the same manner. also grant green's vocab on those minor chords aligns perfectly with martinos linear expressions lines. hardbop 101.

[princeplanet]

TBH, I feel a bit "meh" about both. The GB version is probably a bit more compelling, but still not really satisfying either.

IMHO, nobody, and I mean nobody, should ever attempt to cover this tune. It's the best way to show how far away from the true greats of improvisation (that created the original) you really are!

[pamosmusic]

btw, the last lick is called the "long but not forgotten" lick

Yeah one of the reasons Grant is so great for transcribing is that he can teach you to hear in chunks. I haven't transcribed as much GG as you or Mr B probably, but quite a bit, and this is just a bunch of classic Grant stuff. There's some overlap with his What Is This Thing stuff ... though he manages to restrain himself from the Ab a bit in this, and that diminished arpeggio, which makes it somewhat less tonic minor-y than it could be.

Still. Classic GG and cool. Maybe not his finest work, but cool.

[djg]

Yeah one of the reasons Grant is so great for transcribing is that he can teach you to hear in chunks.

indeed.

on the record in question before So What in Cm, there is a minor blues in Ebm called come sunrise (the melody got similarities with softly), check out the opening phrase. it is lick no.2. so we get it verbatim on so what in Cm at 0:52, again on two for one in Dm at 0:42 and here in Ebm at 0:27. grant loved that lick.

[Greentone]

Hey, Mr. B,

It's arguable who is the biggest GG fan on here. :-)

That said, I agree with your assessment.

GT

[djg]

The head and first solo choruses sure sound like F major to me.

it is the chord that is putting you off. in Cm you'd expect the usual move x55565 to x33343. but the background stays on x5556x and does not move down. so it sounds like an F chord to you.

and on top of it grant plays the head in Fm. i know it looks like a Cm lick because it goes GCDEb etc. but "so what" actually starts on the root, so in Cm grant would have to play CGABb etc. which he does not, deliberate or accidental. but everthing is still in Cm.

[equenda]

Sonny Stitt Live in Boston, 1954.
Song: Sweet Georgia Brown.

Please, listen at 2:35.

I'm convinced it's not a coincidence.

However I prefer the version played by Wes.

ettore

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Man I think you need to transcribe this.

Im not sitting here with a guitar, but the first 16 are absolutely classic GG minor licks in the appropriate key.

And since I’m reading Cm and F major in the same post now, I think some clarification is in order. You were talking about relative major in your last (jazz tunes for beginners). Are you talking about the key of F major? Which isn’t the relative major of Cm, obviously. Do you mean Eb? Or F dominant? Or like … one flat F major. If the latter than you might need to point me to the E naturals you’re hearing over that C min.

I think he’s playing it in F major, which is the relative major of Dm, which is the original key. I assume Green got to F major by confusing, mistaking, or cleverly / innocently substituting relative major for minor in the same key signature (1 flat). I suspect he did it on purpose, and it makes a nice simple swing tune. But I think it destroys the haunting, brooding beauty of the composition.

Some of his lines after the first 2 minutes do suggest C natural minor, which contains the same notes as an F dom 7 scale with a 9#. So I can understand how djg might think he’s hearing Cm in some of his lines. But it sounds to me like Green was playing in F major and tossed in some phrases that fit both Cm and F major because the two scales share almost all of their notes.

[pamosmusic]

I think he’s playing it in F major, which is the relative major of Dm, which is the original key. I assume Green got to F major by confusing, mistaking, or cleverly / innocently substituting relative major for minor in the same key signature (1 flat). I suspect he did it on purpose, and it makes a nice simple swing tune. But I think it destroys the haunting, brooding beauty of the composition.

Some of his lines after the first 2 minutes do suggest C natural minor, which contains the same notes as an F dom 7 scale with a 9#. So I can understand how djg might think he’s hearing Cm in some of his lines. But it sounds to me like Green was playing in F major and tossed in some phrases that fit both Cm and F major because the two scales share almost all of their notes.

I don’t know what to tell you other than that this is just not correct.

The two scales do share a lot of notes but the note that is different is Eb for the C Dorian, and E natural for the F major. Can you point to a specific line that is in one flat? Like … is there an E natural over a single one of the Cm bars? There isn’t. But there is an Eb in virtually every line he plays.

There are a lot of ways to hear the same pitches and feel them differently, but if you’re hearing that this is in “F major, the relative major of the original D minor” then you’re hearing pitches that are objectively not there. Especially since you’re suggesting that this is something that Grant is doing wrong or whatever, you should probably be able to point to an example that supports this in some way. I couldn’t play this note for note at the moment, but my ear is good enough to know that you won’t find such an example.

Even that later contention that there’s a C natural minor sound at the end is kind of weird. Maybe a stray Ab here and there but he’s just hammering A natural the whole way through.

The closest we can get to what you’re talking about here is what djg suggested — that there is a sort of prevailing F note in the harmony for the head, which would not be relative major to the wrong key, but would be the V to the Dorian ii. It’s like playing that Eb A D voicing (F13, or Cm6/9) over a C bass, versus playing the F Bb Eb or whatever. But he’s absolutely shredding Cm over the whole thing and the bass is plugging away at typical Cm vamp stuff. So playing As and Fs over that might give you more of like a dominant feeling “Oye Como Va” dorian, rather than a brooding Bill Evans Dorian.

But your explanation of this is objectively incorrect and it’s kind of weird to attribute this to mistakes or poor musical choices on Grants part. I honestly don’t think this is top shelf Grant, but I’m not sure where you’re getting what you’re getting.

[djg]

I think he’s playing it in F major, which is the relative major of Dm, which is the original key. I assume Green got to F major by confusing, mistaking, or cleverly / innocently substituting relative major for minor in the same key signature (1 flat). I suspect he did it on purpose, and it makes a nice simple swing tune. But I think it destroys the haunting, brooding beauty of the composition.

Some of his lines after the first 2 minutes do suggest C natural minor, which contains the same notes as an F dom 7 scale with a 9#. So I can understand how djg might think he’s hearing Cm in some of his lines. But it sounds to me like Green was playing in F major and tossed in some phrases that fit both Cm and F major because the two scales share almost all of their notes.

here is the track minus guitar. i dare you to play Fmaj and Gbmaj over the thing. no, i double dare you. Storage Share

[pamosmusic]

here is the track minus guitar. i dare you to play Fmaj and Gbmaj over the thing. no, i double dare you. Storage Share

More to the point ...


Here's as much of Grant as I could write out in the time it took my coffee to brew.

I stopped where he got hipper, but it's Ebs all day, A naturals all day.

Ne'er an E natural to be found.

grant so what - Score.pdf - Google Drive

I promise to stop ... but the first fourteen or whatever measures that I got, he plays straight up a Cm from the root three times, with an embellishment once, and up a Cm9 arpeggio once. Couldn't be clearer.

EDIT: What I will say, and which I said right from the get, is that this does look more like tonic minor vocab to me than “Dorian vocab.” Jeff mentioned the B naturals, and with the exception of the pickup measure, you might mistake this entrance for a solo over something like Softly as in the Morning Sunrise. Which I kind of like. But yeah.

[djg]

More to the point ...


Here's as much of Grant as I could write out in the time it took my coffee to brew.

I stopped where he got hipper, but it's Ebs all day, A naturals all day.

Ne'er an E natural to be found.

grant so what - Score.pdf - Google Drive

I promise to stop ... but the first fourteen or whatever measures that I got, he plays straight up a Cm from the root three times, with an embellishment once, and up a Cm9 arpeggio once. Couldn't be clearer.

EDIT: What I will say, and which I said right from the get, is that this does look more like tonic minor vocab to me than “Dorian vocab.” Jeff mentioned the B naturals, and with the exception of the pickup measure, you might mistake this entrance for a solo over something like Softly as in the Morning Sunrise. Which I kind of like. But yeah.

and here is grant's solo without backing. play Fmaj over his A section and somewhere a puppy dies. Storage Share

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

here is the track minus guitar. i dare you to play Fmaj and Gbmaj over the thing. no, i double dare you.

What notes do you think are being played in the head in bar 1? What is the highest note in the repeated chord that follows it?

[pamosmusic]

What notes do you think are being played in the head in bar 1? What is the highest note in the repeated chord that follows it?

Dude this is like the twilight zone. The notes are

G C D Eb F G Eb F C

The chord is a what sounds like a Dm triad w F on top and an Eb at the bottom. Often used as an F13 or Cm6/9 voicing.

Again … how are we in one flat, the key of F major?

[AllanAllen]

Well, good news. I had the same pitches as Peter, but I was thinking the C was a b7th of D, not the root. So, my ear isn't as bad as I thought it was this morning.

[djg]

What notes do you think are being played in the head in bar 1? What is the highest note in the repeated chord that follows it?

i have spelt it out for you in post 43. i have also spelt out the chord. peter has transcribed the first round. i have given you the main licks and shown how grant uses them over other minor chords.

[pamosmusic]

but the background stays on x5556x and does not move down. so it sounds like an F chord to you.

For what it’s worth, I think maybe x6776x?

I don’t know. My ear for chords isn’t all that hot. It just sounds a little bit spicier than the straight perfect quartal.

[djg]

For what it’s worth, I think maybe x6776x?

I don’t know. My ear for chords isn’t all that hot. It just sounds a little bit spicier than the straight perfect quartal.

it#s basically the white keys starting with D. Dm11. as i said the the dm to cm move is replaced by staying on dm11 (which is just the upper structure of cm anyway, think milestones, etc)

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I don’t know. My ear for chords isn’t all that hot

I applaud you for your honesty. With no disrespect, since you said it yourself, I think you've proved this here.

Yeah one of the reasons Grant is so great for transcribing is that he can teach you to hear in chunks. I haven't transcribed as much GG as you or Mr B probably, but quite a bit, and this is just a bunch of classic Grant stuff. There's some overlap with his What Is This Thing stuff ... though he manages to restrain himself from the Ab a bit in this, and that diminished arpeggio, which makes it somewhat less tonic minor-y than it could be.


Still. Classic GG and cool. Maybe not his finest work, but cool.

I have no idea what that's supposed to be or how it relates to the discussion of the key in which GG is playing So What. That score snippet is in 2 flats, which puts it in either Bb major or G minor - but no one has suggested that GG is playing in either of those keys.

and here is grant's solo without backing. Storage Share

And he's playing the head in F in that clip. The highest note of GG's line in the opening bar (which is the second to last note) is an F. Take note of the fact that the last note GG plays in each of the repetitions of the head riff is not in the original score - he adds it. But it's a C, which is the dominant in the key in which he's playing it. Only the second and fourth iterations of that riff end with the dominant A on KoB, which is clearly played in D minor. But it's clearly the dominant - it's an A. I assume none of you disagrees with this.

Look at the original Dm score. Listen to the original So What on KoB - that last note played by GG throughout the head is only played by Chambers in the second and fourth reiterations of the line. The highest note in that line in the original is a D, which is the tonic because the tune is being played in D minor. The highest note in that riff played by GG is an F - because he's playing it in F.

G C D Eb F G Eb F C

You got that right - it's what they'e playing. The F is the tonic and the C is the dominant - he's playing it in F. Again, look at any accurate transcription of the original for this tune - the highest note in the head riff is the tonic. In Miles' chart and recordings, it's a D, because the tune was written in D minor. But GG is playing it in F Major, so the highest note in his head line is an F.

Here's as much of Grant as I could write out in the time it took my coffee to brew. I stopped where he got hipper, but it's Ebs all day, A naturals all day. Ne'er an E natural to be found.

grant so what - Score.pdf - Google Drive

I promise to stop ... but the first fourteen or whatever measures that I got, he plays straight up a Cm from the root three times, with an embellishment once, and up a Cm9 arpeggio once. Couldn't be clearer.

What in the world does this have to do with the key in which Green is playing the tune? You included no key signature and added flats for B and E plus a sharp on one F - so I assume it's a transcription of 14 bars from somewhere in his solo. Look at the notes - they're from a straight Bb scale. I'm not sure whether you simply got sloppy or actually heard what you wrote - and I'm not going to go over the entire solo note by note to find out. But you've peppered your transcribing with B naturals and B flats - natural in 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th and 13th bars, but flat in the 1st, 12th and 14th. And you think this is a "straight up Cm"?

Dude this is like the twilight zone. The notes are

G C D Eb F G Eb F C

The chord is a what sounds like a Dm triad w F on top and an Eb at the bottom. Often used as an F13 or Cm6/9 voicing. Again … how are we in one flat, the key of F major?

A D minor triad with an F on top is the chord I identified in my first post on this, so you're confirming that you hear what I hear. I think you're interpreting it wrong and you think I am. So be it.

GG plays an F major (add 6) for both chords

I don't hear the Eb clearly, but if it's there it just makes it an F13 as you say yourself.