Singing while improvising

[kris]

Glenn Gould?

I see he sing...:-)

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

"Singing" makes me play fewer notes and think more musically.

I understand, and I will admit to being attracted to faster, busier improvisation most of the time.

Wes was pretty darned melodic and all he did was smile or press his lips a little tighter when concentrating harder. No moaning and groaning was required.

[SandChannel]

The problem isn't with Gould's singing. Rather it is his interpretations. /ShotsFired

[kris]

I understand, and I will admit to being attracted to faster, busier improvisation most of the time.

Wes was pretty darned melodic and all he did was smile or press his lips a little tighter when concentrating harder. No moaning and groaning was required.

Herb Ellis said that Wes also sang while playing...

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Herb Ellis said that Wes also sang while playing...

Well where can we see or hear that?

Taking a step back - what is your definition of "singing"?

[kris]

The problem isn't with Gould's singing. Rather it is his interpretations. /ShotsFired

However, his "singing" or moving his lips has an impact on the interpretation of the tune.

[kris]

Well where can we see or hear that?

Taking a step back - what is your definition of "singing"?

I'm not Herb Ellis.

[Christian Miller]

The problem isn't with Gould's singing. Rather it is his interpretations. /ShotsFired

haha. I respect this comment even though I like Gould.

[kris]

haha. I respect this comment even though I like Gould.

+1

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

If we’re talking about moanin’ instead of Al Jarreau’in that’s one thing.

I think that moaning/humming along is sort of a physical release to exhale and enable flow, and to prevent one from tightening up or holding their breath etc., all of which can be stifling - head to toe.

I am skeptical however that moaning has a significant impact on note choice as much as overall phrasing, at least when it comes to “burnin”. (In other words, see post #2).

[MarkRhodes]

What Herb said.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

And what do we think about “building a jazz vocabulary”?

[kris]

And what do we think about “building a jazz vocabulary”?

3 Reasons Why You Should Sing Everyday

https://www.jazzadvice.com/lessons/3-reasons-why-you-should-sing-everyday/

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

3 Reasons Why You Should Sing Everyday

3 Reasons Singing Helps Jazz Improvisation and Transcription - Jazzadvice

The hole is so big in that article you can drive a Mack truck through it. IMO.

so what do we think about building a jazz vocabulary?

[kris]

Jazz vocabulary - very good tool for the initial learning to play jazz.
Jazz giants come to such skills that they build their own jazz vocabularies.
Sometimes it takes several years until they find their own language of musical expression.
It's more complicated if we think about jazz improvisation.
There are musicians who play similar phrases and repeat themselves/licks/.
But there are also those whose improvisations are very fresh-this is the ideal of a jazz improviser.
Coltrane,Gordon,Baker,Jarrett,Miles,Rollins,McCoy Tyner..........and man others.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Jazz vocabulary - very good tool for the initial learning to play jazz.
Jazz giants come to such skills that they build their own jazz vocabularies.
Sometimes it takes several years until they find their own language of musical expression.
It's more complicated if we think about jazz improvisation.
There are musicians who play similar phrases and repeat themselves/licks/.
But there are also those whose improvisations are very fresh-this is the ideal of a jazz improviser.
Coltrane,Gordon,Baker,Jarrett,Miles,Rollins,McCoy Tyner..........and man others.

Well, there are any number of greats who continued/continue to work on their vocab. With some of the great ones it never stopped/stops.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

3 Reasons Why You Should Sing Everyday

3 Reasons Singing Helps Jazz Improvisation and Transcription - Jazzadvice

Here's another article from "Eric"

The Complete Guide to Transcribing Jazz Language, Lines, &Tunes - Jazzadvice

One has to pay for this "premium" lesson. Hopefully he gets to "Assimilation". Listening, imitation, and even singing are all great, but Assimilation is the missing link.

Good musicians can learn transcribed solos and play them authentically like any other memorized piece of music. But how does one get to the point of being capable of doing that improvised soloing themselves? By using their ears, learning 100 solos, and trial and error? Maaaaybe, but that's the long way around, and probably too long for most.

[Lionelsax]

I wonder if there are mute musicians.
That could be interesting.
I just found a rapper.

[kris]

I do not know.
Surely many are deaf because they do not practice ear training.

[Christian Miller]

Jazz vocabulary - very good tool for the initial learning to play jazz.
Jazz giants come to such skills that they build their own jazz vocabularies.
Sometimes it takes several years until they find their own language of musical expression.
It's more complicated if we think about jazz improvisation.
There are musicians who play similar phrases and repeat themselves/licks/.
But there are also those whose improvisations are very fresh-this is the ideal of a jazz improviser.
Coltrane,Gordon,Baker,Jarrett,Miles,Rollins,McCoy Tyner..........and man others.

start by stealing….

[Lionelsax]

I do not know.
Surely many are deaf because they do not practice ear training.

I know deaf children who can sing.

[supersoul]

Not the same but related is foot tapping. Tapping my foot affects my sense of rhythm so strongly that I do it all the time. The trick is to not make it conspicuous, like tap my foot inside of my shoe so other people can't see it. Or wear shoes that don't click much when I tap with them.

Or one can be like John Lee Hooker and just fucking stomp away. Put a mic on that shit, make it louder. Worked for him.

And there are those who can not move at all but have impeccable rhythm.

I don't have to tap my foot but it helps me to internalize the tempo so much better. Making it physical gives the tempo a momentum and so I know where it is all the time. On the other hand, I don't sing when I play but I totally understand how it might work for some people.

[MarkRhodes]

Herb Ellis said that Wes also sang while playing...

Right. And I take Herb's word for this. He also said Joe Pass did it. But such "singing" need not be audible. If you listen to Herb with the Oscar Peterson trio, you can hear Oscar doing this. Some people find that distracting. You usually don't hear Herb doing it but he is doing it nonetheless. (On video, though, you can often see that he is doing it.) He said the horn players he knew did it too, though you can't hear that (because you only hear the horn) and you can't see it (because the horn hides the lips).

"Singing" might be the wrong word here, though I can't think of a better one.

One way to get at this is to take a line you already know, perhaps several bars, and sing it as you play it. That's how you sing lines. Maybe it's more like humming. Whatever. Then do that over a vamp without playing anything. Then try to play what you just sang. Then try doing them both at the same time.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Right. And I take Herb's word for this. He also said Joe Pass did it. But such "singing" need not be audible. If you listen to Herb with the Oscar Peterson trio, you can hear Oscar doing this. Some people find that distracting. You usually don't hear Herb doing it but he is doing it nonetheless. (On video, though, you can often see that he is doing it.) He said the horn players he knew did it too, though you can't hear that (because you only hear the horn) and you can't see it (because the horn hides the lips).

"Singing" might be the wrong word here, though I can't think of a better one.

One way to get at this is to take a line you already know, perhaps several bars, and sing it as you play it. That's how you sing lines. Maybe it's more like humming. Whatever. Then do that over a vamp without playing anything. Then try to play what you just sang. Then try doing them both at the same time.

Well if it's inaudible it's not singing. "Playing a track in your head" is musical imagination, not "singing".

[Christian Miller]

And what do we think about “building a jazz vocabulary”?

yes. Don’t get sidetracked by improvisation or creativity or any of that hippy nonsense. Aim to sound superficially good. Beg borrow and steal and shoehorn things into standards. II V licks that sort of thing.

if you get good enough at this and you are fortunate enough some old jazz fella may tell you off for it. ‘I have those records too! Find your own thing.’

If this happens well done, you have progressed to the next level! Which is finding your own focus, voice and learning to truly improvise. I recommend Barry Harris for bebop. But I feel you need to be able to play a bit first for that.

Unless you are a Tristano guy of course, in which case, do Tristano stuff.