Singing while improvising

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Lots of opinions. That's cool. Mine is:

Regardless of topic or field, if one can't explain a concept crisply and concisely, or if they keep moving the definition around when challenged, then they don't know the topic as well as they think they do, or the concept is flawed in some form or fashion.

[Lionelsax]

"You'll use your voice more/'singing"/- you'll play better...."
That's what an older, experienced music teacher told me.
....but it was a school of classical music...

Sure that's obvious.
Nothing to do with the topic...
It's about rhythm, I taught a song called Sing-Sing Song, a French adaptation of Adderley's Work Song.
They couldn't sing properly.
So while they were singing, they had to use their feet and hands.

Right foot : first beat
Clapping hands : second beat
Left foot : third beat
Clapping hands : fourth beat

That's the exercise I used to do twenty years ago.
We had to do this on a backing track while we sang simple improvised lines.

Singing was easier than playing.

[kris]

Lots of opinions. That's cool. Mine is:

Regardless of topic or field, if one can't explain a concept crisply and concisely, or if they keep moving the definition around when challenged, then they don't know the topic as well as they think they do, or the concept is flawed in some form or fashion.

Or someone doesn't know how to play jazz on an instrument and has a big lack in education.
This cannot be clearly explained.
What jazz musicians do while playing is difficult to call "singing".
But I don't know any other name.
ps.
I take a guitar and playing chord changes I can easily sing jazz solo to the accompaniment of the guitar
I don't think about theory, I just sing.
When I play a guitar solo ... my voice controls the guitar playing.

[kris]

Sure that's obvious.
Nothing to do with the topic...
It's about rhythm, I taught a song called Sing-Sing Song, a French adaptation of Adderley's Work Song.
They couldn't sing properly.
So while they were singing, they had to use their feet and hands.

Right foot : first beat
Clapping hands : second beat
Left foot : third beat
Clapping hands : fourth beat

That's the exercise I used to do twenty years ago.
We had to do this on a backing track while we sang simple improvised lines.

Singing was easier than playing.

That's it. A sense of rhythm - probably the most important element in jazz music.
That's why I wrote about classical music.
can anyone play jazz?
if I'm having trouble with my sense of rhythm...I don't think I'm going to play well.
But because I exercise all my life and I listen a lot.
The voice helps me get it all together.

[Lionelsax]

That's it. A sense of rhythm - probably the most important element in jazz music.
That's why I wrote about classical music.
can anyone play jazz?
if I'm having trouble with my sense of rhythm...I don't think I'm going to play well.
But because I exercise all my life and I listen a lot.
The voice helps me get it all together.

Singing is easier than playing for me.
Playing offers maybe more possibilities (intervals and lines) but it doesn't sound so natural (swing feel) than when I sing even if I don't sing very well.
Pupils think I'm a singer but I'm not.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Or someone doesn't know how to play jazz on an instrument and has a big lack in education.
This cannot be clearly explained.
What jazz musicians do while playing is difficult to call "singing".
But I don't know any other name.
ps.
I take a guitar and playing chord changes I can easily sing jazz solo to the accompaniment of the guitar
I don't think about theory, I just sing.
When I play a guitar solo ... my voice controls the guitar playing.

The inevitable comeback. The insult! The throwdown! lol. I do something else for a living but have played some jazz successfully off and on, it's just very difficult to sustain when you do something else. Too many interruptions.

I've been paying attention to so-called jazz education for about 50 years and have the "best" materials dating to John Mehegan, Jerry Coker, et al. As an owner of the massive library (ball and chain actually, just can't bring myself to chunking all those books and they wouldn't bring much $) I can say that there is a lot of good material for kindling. In other words, a lot of "Jazz Ed BS". The good news is that jazz pedagogy is getting better.

That said, what do you call it when someone claims something to be true, but for all intents and purposes appears to be false. Two examples - from Herb Ellis?

1. "Wes sings when he plays". But in hours of video and recordings there is zero evidence to support this claim.
2. Same for Joe Pass. One difference for me personally is that I saw him twice, front row, close enough to reach out and pat his shoulder. No singing.

In any other field we would call that a falsehood. If it were legal testimony, it could be perjurious. A lot of BS in Jazz Ed.

[Lionelsax]

The inevitable comeback. The insult! The throwdown! lol. I do something else for a living but have played some jazz successfully off and on, it's just very difficult to sustain when you do something else. Too many interruptions.

I've been paying attention to so-called jazz education for about 50 years and have the "best" materials dating to John Mehegan, Jerry Coker, et al. As an owner of the massive library (ball and chain actually, just can't bring myself to chunking all those books and they wouldn't bring much $) I can say that there is a lot of good material for kindling. In other words, a lot of "Jazz Ed BS". The good news is that jazz pedagogy is getting better.

That said, what do you call it when someone claims something to be true, but for all intents and purposes appears to be false. Two examples - from Herb Ellis?

1. "Wes sings when he plays". But in hours of video and recordings there is zero evidence to support this claim.
2. Same for Joe Pass. One difference for me personally is that I saw him twice, front row, close enough to reach out and pat his shoulder. No singing.

In any other field we would call that a falsehood. If it were legal testimony, it could be perjurious. A lot of BS in Jazz Ed.

They are performing not practicing.

[jazzshrink]

...That said, what do you call it when someone claims something to be true, but for all intents and purposes appears to be false. Two examples - from Herb Ellis?

1. "Wes sings when he plays". But in hours of video and recordings there is zero evidence to support this claim.
2. Same for Joe Pass. One difference for me personally is that I saw him twice, front row, close enough to reach out and pat his shoulder. No singing.

In any other field we would call that a falsehood. If it were legal testimony, it could be perjurious. A lot of BS in Jazz Ed.

I think you may be misinterpreting Ellis' remarks. I think he's commenting on the melodic or "vocal" quality of their solos, rather than claiming that either sings aloud when they play.

[Christian Miller]

So, I suppose this going to become the jobbing pros having circular, repetitive arguments with opinionated hobbyists forum? Seems less of the former and more of the latter every year.

(No shade meant at the excellent amateur players here.)

not sure which i am at the moment (I’ve been a jobbing player, now I’m teaching more), but I’m mostly trying to pass on what I’ve learned from masters and what has helped me imagining that people might find it helpful. Instead lot of arguments trying to refute or debunk this stuff for some reason from people whose playing is conspicuous by its absence from the forum. All misplaced energy. If you think I play rubbish, ignore what I say; if you think I play good, maybe entertain that I might be onto something. Same with Kris, or Jeff, or Graham or whoever. I dunno.

You do you, but as I said - you can’t argue your way to being a better musician.

[kris]

The inevitable comeback. The insult! The throwdown! lol. I do something else for a living but have played some jazz successfully off and on, it's just very difficult to sustain when you do something else. Too many interruptions.

I've been paying attention to so-called jazz education for about 50 years and have the "best" materials dating to John Mehegan, Jerry Coker, et al. As an owner of the massive library (ball and chain actually, just can't bring myself to chunking all those books and they wouldn't bring much $) I can say that there is a lot of good material for kindling. In other words, a lot of "Jazz Ed BS". The good news is that jazz pedagogy is getting better.

That said, what do you call it when someone claims something to be true, but for all intents and purposes appears to be false. Two examples - from Herb Ellis?

1. "Wes sings when he plays". But in hours of video and recordings there is zero evidence to support this claim.
2. Same for Joe Pass. One difference for me personally is that I saw him twice, front row, close enough to reach out and pat his shoulder. No singing.

In any other field we would call that a falsehood. If it were legal testimony, it could be perjurious. A lot of BS in Jazz Ed.

Speaking of great books...
Then you may have the book "A Creative Approach to Practicing Jazz" by David N, Baker.
There are sing/play exercises.
And interesting nr 24 -General Suggestions for Construcive Practise:
"From time to time,sing and tape solos on tunes and transcribe them.You will often be surpised at the quality of the ideas that you sing.It will do wonders for your cofidence."
Best
Kris
ps.
Note/same book/;
"Sing all scale exercises before attempting to play them,particularly those with altered tones!!"

[Christian Miller]

Speaking of great books...
Then you may have the book "A Creative Approach to Practicing Jazz" by David N, Baker.
There are sing/play exercises.
And interesting nr 24 -General Suggestions for Construcive Practise:
"From time to time,sing and tape solos on tunes and transcribe them.You will often be surpised at the quality of the ideas that you sing.It will do wonders for your cofidence."
Best
Kris
ps.
Note/same book/;
"Sing all scale exercises before attempting to play them,particularly those with altered tones!!"

if prof. Baker was still with us and on this forum, cats would be arguing with him too lol

After a while you just have to leave this place. It’ll make you crazy (crazier in my case haha.)

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

I think you may be misinterpreting Ellis' remarks. I think he's commenting on the melodic or "vocal" quality of their solos, rather than claiming that either sings aloud when they play.

Nope, sorry, that's not what the man said.

[Lionelsax]

I know he wasn't a great musician but it can be interesting.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

They are performing not practicing.

I think you're a great guy Kris, but in fairness and to be accurate, it is in no way clear or evident that we were only talking about singing during practice, if that is what we are saying now. That's not clear in your initial posts, not what we talked about with Oscar, Keith, George, Kurt, etc. AND - it's not what Herb said either.

I like Herb, I bought some of his educational materials back in the 1970s. He was a UNT guy, which is near and dear to my heart. I never went there but know a number of people who did, including two of my jazz band directors and two of my guitar teachers. I played a Jack Peterson chart and took the guitar solo in a concert. Herb was an important guitarist in his day but was not known as a soloist to be reckoned with. I remember the times. I saw him in concerts, blah, blah, blah. In today's world I'm not sure how well known he would be, although he would still be Herb, and a solid player. Lot's of great players emerged after the 1960s. But I still respect him, and paid hard earned money for some of his records and books.

BUT - we all have choices in life and I choose not to agree with him on singing solos, or soloing on what one sings (which he appeared to regard as synonymous). Sorry, he was great but as far as I'm concerned, his little speech at 11:11 was a mess. I don't agree with his "do it or else" conclusion either. His point of view regarding playing slowly and methodically sounds like he was a just a liiiiittle bit jealous of speed (like Jim Hall was). I won't mention who I assume their target "bad guy" or "bad guys" of the day were, lol. It is what it is.

EDIT - I went too fast and confused Lionelsax was Kris. My bad on a busy Thursday.

[jazzshrink]

Nope, sorry, that's not what the man said.

Forgive me if I don't just take your word for it. Five words in quotation, without citation or context, hardly constitutes credible proof. Same for Joe Pass isn't even a quote. If you have more information to share, I'll gladly look at it. In the mean time, let's not call a much-revered jazz pioneer a liar, okay.

[pauln]

if prof. Baker was still with us and on this forum, cats would be arguing with him too lol

Yes I would definitely be one of those cats raising questions about things like this.

"From time to time,sing and tape solos on tunes and transcribe them.You will often be
surprised at the quality of the ideas that you sing.It will do wonders for your confidence."

He's explicitly splitting singing from the playing, proof - the need for transcription.
He doesn't believe in playing by ear in which everything is "sung" silently, always.
That is clear from "surprised quality of ideas sung", not a surprise for ear players!
Those of who employ singing while playing, why don't you need to transcribe it?

[gcb]

[MarkRhodes]

Well if it's inaudible it's not singing. "Playing a track in your head" is musical imagination, not "singing".

It's not playing a track in your head. It's not imagining something. It's DOING something. It just may not be loud enough for others to hear. Herb doesn't mean "sing out like a vocalist" and you know that. You can watch him doing it in that video but you don't hear him doing it. (If he had a mic up to his mouth you might.)

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

It's not playing a track in your head. It's not imagining something. It's DOING something. It just may not be loud enough for others to hear. Herb doesn't mean "sing out like a vocalist" and you know that. You can watch him doing it in that video but you don't hear him doing it. (If he had a mic up to his mouth you might.)

Thanks Mark but I don’t know that because he called it singing and referenced George Benson.

So anyway, assuming we’re NOT just talking about the practice room, we’re talking performance, what shall we call it? Grunting? Moaning? Half singing? Singing incompetently yet quiet so it’s not too offensive?

Whatever helps a person improvise successfully is a-ok, even a relatively modest improviser like Ellis.

I always thought Herb’s performance look was a little homely, in terms of how he had his mouth hanging open, with his chin wrinkled like he’d just bitten into a rotten pistachio and was trying to decide whether to spit that sucker out, or power through and swallow it. But whatever works. Herb was a good guy.

[ragman1]

Maybe instrumentalists are repressed singers. They really want to sing and open themselves but they've only got it second-hand through their instrument. So they sing as they play to make the connection.

It's my theory

[Lionelsax]

Maybe instrumentalists are repressed singers. They really want to sing and open themselves but they've only got it second-hand through their instrument. So they sing as they play to make the connection.

It's my theory

If they can't sing, hum or whistle, maybe they compensate with gas.
Who knows ?

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

So, I suppose this going to become the jobbing pros having circular, repetitive arguments with opinionated hobbyists forum? Seems less of the former and more of the latter every year.

(No shade meant at the excellent amateur players here.)

not sure which i am at the moment (I’ve been a jobbing player, now I’m teaching more), but I’m mostly trying to pass on what I’ve learned from masters and what has helped me imagining that people might find it helpful. Instead lot of arguments trying to refute or debunk this stuff for some reason from people whose playing is conspicuous by its absence from the forum. All misplaced energy. If you think I play rubbish, ignore what I say; if you think I play good, maybe entertain that I might be onto something. Same with Kris, or Jeff, or Graham or whoever. I dunno.

You do you, but as I said - you can’t argue your way to being a better musician.

Good points, but this IS kind of an amateur jazz guitar learning site, is it not? Who knows.

Anyway, if jazz pros are deities and their every utterance about musicianship is the word of god, what shall we do when they contradict each other? Call 911 for the Jazz police?

On “Rubber Soul” George Harrison had a song entitled “Think For Yourself”. Where Jazz Ed. is concerned, I think that’s pretty good advice.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

if prof. Baker was still with us and on this forum, cats would be arguing with him too lol

After a while you just have to leave this place. It’ll make you crazy (crazier in my case haha.)

I have a lot of Baker’s lovely books. How would you compare and contrast the utility of his pattern books - and his blues book - with his How To Play Bebop books?

Put another way, how many man-hours would you advise the music student spend on each? Please provide the answer in terms of hours from 0-5000. But only if you want to.

[kris]

Yes I would definitely be one of those cats raising questions about things like this.

"From time to time,sing and tape solos on tunes and transcribe them.You will often be
surprised at the quality of the ideas that you sing.It will do wonders for your confidence."

He's explicitly splitting singing from the playing, proof - the need for transcription.
He doesn't believe in playing by ear in which everything is "sung" silently, always.
That is clear from "surprised quality of ideas sung", not a surprise for ear players!
Those of who employ singing while playing, why don't you need to transcribe it?

Because others transcribe your solo.,,haha
See on you tube how many people transcribe solos of other musicians.

[ragman1]

If they can't sing, hum or whistle, maybe they compensate with gas.
Who knows ?

Maybe they do. Maybe Pujol did :-)