Improv Notes from G.I.T. grad mid-80's

[Richard_Luther]

One more then I'm done. Promise.

Intellectualism has crept slowly into learning this music. A form of first-world navel gazing. Scales, arps, methods. This music is African. Notice the genius of childlike simplicity. How memorable. Back in the day I saw Stern and Brecker together three times. A wall of sound and I can't remember any of it. Incredible yes, but memorable no.

Listen to these two tunes. Watch Monk and his physical reaction. Hauntingly memorable. Why? Syncopation.

[Christian Miller]

Hey Christian. Can you throw in an example? A piece of music that talks about it?

Louis Armstrong’s quarter notes.

or any great bass player for that matter; or Freddie Green for that matter.

When there is no syncopation, the music continues to swing. Why? The negative space creates the upbeat swing.

Try practicing quarter notes and releasing the note exactly on the swing ‘and’

[freud]

hey,


Does this thread have a chance for a second life and continuation? For several months I've been trying to work on time feel, syncopation, swing. And this thread gave me a lot to think about. Especially the subject of negative space syncopation. This allows you to hear the rhythm of the melody and feel the time in a slightly different way. I'm trying to work now to make it my nature and the way I hear music.


Does anyone have similar? Has anyone managed to understand and feel swing thanks to the feeling of negative space and syncopation with silence?

[whiskey02]

Is this a nice way of asking... " Who the Hell is Peter Sprague"?
Everyone has different fingers, hands, necks/frets/strings, style's, techniques and interpretations. Perhaps the folks who insist on not rolling fingers to play fourths have more trouble/less success doing so?

Funny. I always think that I don’t do the finger roll fourths thing enough. I guess that should let it go but maybe still throw one in every once in a while. Might still want at least that.

[Cunamara]

While I agree that intellectualism has crept into jazz, and deemphasized the aspects of the music that made it popular at one time (the swing groove, in particular, making it danceable)*, I am not sure that Thelonious Monk videos are the best way to demonstrate the genius of childlike simplicity! However, both of those videos demonstrate something that I think is often under recognized in Monk's, music: that his sense of time is extremely strict. He places those stabs, the beats in the melody, the accents, etc., with an astonishing degree of precision. It is a marvel to me how it sounds like it doesn't overtly swing during the intro, until the band kicks in and you hear the interaction between the way he phrases time against the drums and bass keeping the time more conventionally. Jazz being an interactional music, it often seems that the swing appears between the players who are not necessarily doing anything particularly swingy individually, but in combination the swing leaps out at you.

* I am not necessarily of the opinion that this intellectualism was a bad thing. It may have moved jazz out of the main stream popular music, but allowed for the creation of some truly astonishing art. This is why jazz continues to exist as something other than a novelty or nostalgia act.

[Christian Miller]

I’m not sure intellectualism is the right word exactly… but I’m struggling to think of another one.

[Bobby Timmons]

While I agree that intellectualism has crept into jazz, and deemphasized the aspects of the music that made it popular at one time (the swing groove, in particular, making it danceable)*, I am not sure that Thelonious Monk videos are the best way to demonstrate the genius of childlike simplicity! However, both of those videos demonstrate something that I think is often under recognized in Monk's, music: that his sense of time is extremely strict. He places those stabs, the beats in the melody, the accents, etc., with an astonishing degree of precision. It is a marvel to me how it sounds like it doesn't overtly swing during the intro, until the band kicks in and you hear the interaction between the way he phrases time against the drums and bass keeping the time more conventionally. Jazz being an interactional music, it often seems that the swing appears between the players who are not necessarily doing anything particularly swingy individually, but in combination the swing leaps out at you.

* I am not necessarily of the opinion that this intellectualism was a bad thing. It may have moved jazz out of the main stream popular music, but allowed for the creation of some truly astonishing art. This is why jazz continues to exist as something other than a novelty or nostalgia act.

Monk's rhythm sections were always time machines. While he usually would play on top of that or syncopated in a way that was in time but not keeping of the time. I'm sure he had influence over telling or implying the drummers and bassists to dominate the time like they always did.

I think this is literally the only cut I've heard him play a traditional rhythm figure, like a rhythm guitar. (Excluding his stride.)

[Bobby Timmons]

One more then I'm done. Promise.

Intellectualism has crept slowly into learning this music. A form of first-world navel gazing. Scales, arps, methods. This music is African. Notice the genius of childlike simplicity. How memorable. Back in the day I saw Stern and Brecker together three times. A wall of sound and I can't remember any of it. Incredible yes, but memorable no.

Listen to these two tunes. Watch Monk and his physical reaction. Hauntingly memorable. Why? Syncopation.

Jazz isn't solely African. It's also European. Jazz directly followed ragtime which came from classical marches.

And I'm pretty sure the thing that made the Monk performances was not only syncopation. It's the whole tune including the composition, melody, harmonic framework, and creative tonal but outside playing on top of the framework.

[Bobby Timmons]

Here's a few improv notes from G.I.T. (now Musician's Institute) while attending in the mid-80's. These are from the minds of Scott Henderson, Joe Diorio, Joe Pass, Howard Roberts, Ted Greene, Carl Shroeder (Pianist), Stormin' Norman Brown, Jeff Berlin, Peter Sprague, Sid Jacobs, Ron Eschete, et. al.

1. The most important thing to play is based on what you just played.

2. Notes are letters, motifs are words, motifs played in four bar phrases are sentences, a series of four bar phrases (the song form) is a paragraph, rinse and repeat to create a story. Beginning, middle and end.

3. Play half as much, then cut that in half, and then you're probably still playing to much.

4. Don't solo too long . Get in and then out. Make them want more. Nothing worse than speaker who doesn't how or when to end a speech.

5. Play a thing (bar one), then play it again (either up or down the neck in bar two), play it one more time (in one direction up or down the neck in bar three), then answer it in bar four.

6. Hear music, play solos, in complete four bar phrases.

7. The real music happens in the silence between the notes. It's an illusion. Notes frame the silence. Stop concentrating on what notes to play, and concentrate on syncopated silence. Silence framed by notes.

8. Practice on one string only. Then add a second string, then a third, etc. Think of the guitar as six trombones. Play horizontally, not vertically.

9. Peter Sprague fingering. No finger rolls for fourths.

10. Last. All's well that ends well. Play inside, slip outside, resolve well and it sounds good. Throw in syncopation, thoughtful silence, dynamics, and the use of playing in four bar phrases, and there you go.

Hope that helps. It's a little vague I know. It's like the "Johnny had sex with his girlfriend" video floating around by Scott Henderson. It all clicks eventually. The biggest of the ten was the concept of the four bar phrase. Now when I hear a solo, like Freddie Hubbard and Wayne Shorter on Fee Fi Fo Fum, the four bar phrase is everything.

Pretty helpful insight into professional playing. While it isn't comprehensive and some I wouldn't want to follow. Play 1/4 of what you would naturally play? Uh no thanks, rhythm is important to me.

A lot of good advice though especially building on your context, and phrasing in smaller and larger sections.

[freud]

Hey, yes guys.
It's interesting to read these notes.


However, I still don't understand how to "hear" and use the term - negative space.
I saw a video on Christian's jazzguitarscrapbook and it's mentioned there. But he understands it more as a harmonic and rhythmic foundation of the line on off beat. Hence a nice exercise and advice to try to play only quarter notes only on off beat.
Is negative space something else? Is it the same but explained in a different way?
In the first post it says that pauses and silence are supposed to swing. But where should these pauses fall? I feel like the more I try to understand it, the more I don't know how to bite it.
And yes, I know perfectly well that "everything is in the recordings" and that "you have to feel it" and that "I complicate simple things unnecessarily".
It's like that when I'm working on a problem, I have to understand first and then solve the problem.

[CliffR]

Hey Freud,

I know what you mean: I like to understand things first rather than just rely on 'feel' or 'intuition', although I feel this habit holds me back.

I read Christian's description a couple of times and finally believe I now finally understand what he means. (I hope he'll correct me if I'm mistaken.)

"Try practicing quarter notes and releasing the note exactly on the swing ‘and’"

If instead you were playing 8th notes, you'd let the on-beat notes last for a certain amount of time, and then play the off-beats which would last for a shorter amount of time, right, and they would start a little after than half-way through the quarter note?

I think Christian is just saying, don't play the off-beat notes, but stop the on-beat notes exactly at the point in time where you would ordinarily begin the off-beat. Hence the syncopation is implied by that silence, or 'negative space'. I hope this makes sense and helps.

[freud]

Thanks good man. I have to think about it because you described it a bit complicated

[Reg]

yea... nice posts.

So I've been laying low.... but want to start posting again. This thread is heading in good direction.
But a few things,

CST is just a tool, part of learning the language. It's just a musical means to show possible organization of how to combine melodic and harmonic concepts ... again with Musical organization.

If you are in the camp or are some anti CST, your just putting yourself at a huge disadvantage.

The problem most have is they don't finish etc... rather than use the tool... it uses you. It's just one of many tools.

The rhythmic concepts... yea again there are many organized concepts that work.

But... you need a Reference to work from. Played or implied. There is no negative space without a Positive space.

My point is if you don't have good time... you'll have problems with Rhythm and Rhythmic concepts.
Yon need to be able to... Imply Time and rhythm. Not a follower. This just take practice, becoming aware of rhythmic patterns and awareness of Sub-dividing....

And knowing the space, the form of what your filling that space with. That means.... you know where your going and where your starting and ending etc.. As mentioned above.... 1 bar, 2 bars, 4, 8, 12, 16 etc.... repeating or at least the implication of repeat.

Once a rhythm or rhythmic pattern is implied, you can start creating relationships with that rhythm or rhythmic pattern. Use of negative space can be one tool to help Develop Relationships with the beginning Reference.

This is the basic backbones, the framework for melodic and harmonic relationships to work and develop.

I tend to believe most guitarist need to learn how to comp using these musical concepts. There are lots and lots of great soloist.... very few who comp well.

Anyway.... I'm finally going to start a comping thread.... probable something like "Comping at the speed of Jazz" LOL. You don't need that much theory, but it will help. You do need chops or technique and some basic harmonic and melodic terms and understandings of.... I can fill in the blanks. In the process you'll become aware of Forms used when performing jazz. Rhythmic concepts will be part of that understanding.

Anyway... sorry to crash the thread, it's really good thread. And I'm stealing some of the concepts...LOL
Reg

And the pattern relationships used within those

[equenda]

Jazz improvisation is often easier than you think.

Jazz improvisation is often more complex than one thinks.

“It’s just music. It’s playing clean and looking for the pretty notes” (Charlie “Bird” Parker”)

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

Ettore Quenda.it - Jazz Guitar - Chitarra Jazz

[Christian Miller]

Hey, yes guys.
It's interesting to read these notes.


However, I still don't understand how to "hear" and use the term - negative space.
I saw a video on Christian's jazzguitarscrapbook and it's mentioned there. But he understands it more as a harmonic and rhythmic foundation of the line on off beat. Hence a nice exercise and advice to try to play only quarter notes only on off beat.
Is negative space something else? Is it the same but explained in a different way?
In the first post it says that pauses and silence are supposed to swing. But where should these pauses fall? I feel like the more I try to understand it, the more I don't know how to bite it.
And yes, I know perfectly well that "everything is in the recordings" and that "you have to feel it" and that "I complicate simple things unnecessarily".
It's like that when I'm working on a problem, I have to understand first and then solve the problem.

the term negative space comes from graphic design. I got the idea from … I can’t really remember actually.. an article I think? They were talking about how Louis plays his quarter notes. But for any pro guitar player playing a rhythm part of a riff in any style, where the notes are cut off is an important part of the music.

People it seems to me often forget about the trailing end of the note, but the note has to live throughout its length and shouldn’t just be played and forgotten about. Even on jazz guitar where the note may die away…

there’s also issues regarding the type of sound; acoustic guitar naturally dies away quicker for example, while electric may need more active management of these aspects. That’s one reason bass players say it’s harder to swing on electric bass.

There’s a lot do commentary about how rhythm should ‘just be felt’; while there are aspects of rhythm that are completely intuitive and others that have to be learned by playing with others, the thing I always come back to is, what do you think drummers spend their time practicing? Or do guitar players think it’s all purely intuitive for them?

having studied a bit with percussionists and drummers I would say, no.

there’s also plenty of stuff on the recordings that only become apparent when you are sensitised to them. Listening is in the ear of listener. What I hear now is different to ten years ago.

A good basic exercise is to play quarter notes on every beat; count to three on every beat and release on the number ‘3’; be exact. Practice with a slow metronome once this is mastered. After a little while it will become intuitive.

[freud]

Hey thanks Christian for your patient answer


I've been sitting and practicing it a lot for last days. Hearing off beats gives a lot of change. It's a bit like going into a trance. Sometimes I manage to build a rhythm from just off beats gaps. And I found that this approach makes it easier to improvise in real time because it gives you more time to think about what to play next I think that a few more years and I will be able to play so intuitively.


I watched your videos on your channel where you explain your approach to swing. I don't really understand (I haven't discovered it myself yet) why you say "the more strait you are, the more behind you are". I'm trying to play totally strait 8ths and I'm not feeling it yet. I don't feel it behid. Does it come with time or am I doing something wrong?

[Christian Miller]

Hey thanks Christian for your patient answer


I've been sitting and practicing it a lot for last days. Hearing off beats gives a lot of change. It's a bit like going into a trance. Sometimes I manage to build a rhythm from just off beats gaps. And I found that this approach makes it easier to improvise in real time because it gives you more time to think about what to play next I think that a few more years and I will be able to play so intuitively.


I watched your videos on your channel where you explain your approach to swing. I don't really understand (I haven't discovered it myself yet) why you say "the more strait you are, the more behind you are". I'm trying to play totally strait 8ths and I'm not feeling it yet. I don't feel it behid. Does it come with time or am I doing something wrong?

Yeah it's maths really. If you rock into the 'ands' and play with a triplet swing, your downbeats will fall on the beat. If you straighten that out but keep your ands locked in, your downbeats will fall behind the beat but you are still locking with the swing, go really straight and you are in Pat Martino territory. Pull the feel ahead of the beat and you get a very dotted feel like Bill Evans sometimes had. (Bill almost plays a scotch snap rhythm at times)

In a jazz group, depending on the players, you may have a drummer who is playing downbeats on the beat (for a drummer like Philly Joe who plays a quite tripletty 'spang a lang' with the 'spang' and 'lang' on the beat), a bass player playing slightly and constantly ahead (pushing) and soloists lagging the beat.

I can't think of a better example of the power of beat placement than the opening of So What. Listen to the way Paul Chambers changes his laid back phrasing of the melody (although he certainly isn't straight here) into his more pushed walking feel. He's changed roles, and therefore his beat placement changes.

So how do you practice this as a player? Simple.

1) Stop trying to swing! That won't work ever.

2) sing and play the ands (muted strums), pay attention to the placement of the ands make sure they are consistent. Most of us tend to rush 4+ .

Not all accentuation in jazz is on the ands but as - how to say this? - people who are not raised in African Diaspora musical culture generally struggle with feeling 'ands' as a strongly as the beat, so that's the area to concentrate on, because you will probably suck at it.

3) Practice a scale, line or pattern accenting quite pointedly the upbeats.

We don't want to accent the 'ands' in fact, but if you suck at them, this is a corrective to the fact that you probably play them too weakly

4) play it again and relax into it. Let go of 'trying' to do anything, let the line spill out naturally

5) record yourself trying these different approaches including 'trying to swing' and see which you prefer. Ask others their opinion. Sometimes you can't really evaluate it well while you are doing it, something new will often feel 'wrong.'

Hope that helps!

You can experiment with straightening out your feel if you like, but TBH I think getting a natural swing feel to start with is the best way to begin. Many students need to deprogram themselves from this awful 'twee bounce' as Destinytot used to call it.

[freud]

Thank You, Sir!