Pre "jazz theory" improv approach?

[Evml]

Lots of great advice here, thanks everybody!

[Evml]

ignore this guy. he is the resident troll who gets banned several times per year and has to make a new account. nobody has ever heard him play which probably is a good thing.

here is what you need to know:

music is based on the principle of tension and release. every key has a dominant chord that leads back to the tonic. this is the basic V-I progression. tension-release. in C: G7 C.

if you want a more subtle build of the tension you can use the IV chord to build up tension going to the V chord. so our more subtle progression is now IV V I. or in C: F G7 C.

the most important thing you learn today: the IV chord can be replaced with the II chord.

in C: F can be replaced by Dm7.

right now, it is not important that you understand why this is, just accept it as a fact. so in C your progression can now also be: Dm7 G7 C. the classic II-V-I. every good jazz player is a master of II-V movements.

if you want to improvise over the II V I you do not need to spell out every chord. over the II V section you can choose to just play over the Dm7 or just the G7. since we have subbed the IV chord with the II chord we can mentally go back and pretend that the IV chord is still there and play over it.

never forget: we improvise over the principle of tension-release. we do *not* improvise over chords.

so the example i gave you is in D. if you check out the first lick again you'll find that it is actually a Gmaj lick over Em7 A7. IV chord material played over a II-V. same with the next lick. Gbmaj over Ebm7 Ab7. IV over II-V (it is also basically honeysuckle rose)

if you internalise these sounds you will recognize them in all the jazz solos from the 40s on. it'll be like a blanket being removed from the music.

so your job is to write out the progression over tune up with the extra II-Vs and post it here. then you fill the whole tune with your two licks and post the result. rinse and repeat.

Awesome, I'm gonna work on this thank you!

one question: by 'these sounds' do you mean specifically IV chord material played over II-V? Or do you mean that in addition to other conventions, like I assume playing II-V over II-V happens a lot too, no?

My jazz teacher years back pointed out, like you said, that it's not about matching specific scales to specific chords, but more about building tension and releasing it in one way or another in a way that syncs or plays off of the passing harmony. In this vein he suggested just starting simply with lines based on V - I, and experimenting with different sounds to use over the V. So my thinking at the time was (and this is where I left off... a long time ago), start with practicing dominant licks leading into the tonic, and once you're good at that start thinking about acknowledging II. Not sure anymore if this would be the best place to start...

[jameslovestal]

Can anyone recommend a tune that demonstrates some 2-5-1 approaches? I really enjoy learning solo's by ear but I'd like to start doing this on tunes where I can actually understand the chord changes, and that uses changes that are common (unlike, say Four on Six).

The Nearness of You.

Very simply, but beautiful tune, with use of 2-5-1 and as the song moves along, stays with the 2-5-1 approach but with variations E.g. m7b5 to Dom7#5.

[djg]

Awesome, I'm gonna work on this thank you!

one question: by 'these sounds' do you mean specifically IV chord material played over II-V? Or do you mean that in addition to other conventions, like I assume playing II-V over II-V happens a lot too, no?

here's the thing: the material is always the same. it just the way you look at it and organize it. look at graham's post. he sees the same line and for him it represents Em7. which is true as well. guitarist pat martino converts *everything* to minor. over a II-V pat just thinks II. if he wants alterations he just thinks of the II chord a tritone apart. wes montgomery otoh converts everything to major shapes. over a II V he thinks IV. as a listener it is not immediately obvious how the musician thinks since the results sound very similar if not the same. compare these almost trivial concepts from the best of the best with the word salad that you often find in discussions and draw your own conclusions.

the biggest favor you can do for yourself: dont overthink. do the work. it's not rocket science. it's more of a grind. so to stay motivated you have to follow your insticts, i.e. you have to enjoy the grind. that is why plans like: 15 min arp, 15 min rep., 15 min reading, etc, seldom work. practice what you like and be reasonable about the expected outcome.

follow members like grahambop or dutchbopper, both dedicated amateurs with the usual blues/rock background who can play and thus have an informed opinion how an amateur can grow to performance level.

disclaimer: i'm a teacher but i'm here only for fun. i got a nice teaching gig and am not fishing for students (or accepting any for that matter). if you want, you can thank me for the info by actually making use of it.

[emanresu]

long time, yes.

...and after those "within the key" thing, one must learn how to create tension...
...and after routinely can create tension and release can start to play somethin interesting
...and after can play interesting then that is the time to express something meaningful...

piece of cake

You pretty much nailed it. I'm 7 years in that mania. Still not quite there yet. But maybe I'm just too stupid

[princeplanet]

Oh I just meant for me, with my present experience (about 20 years of playing classic blues and rock) if I started now practicing strictly jazz, I don't think it would take 10 years. Like I'm probably half way there or something. I definitely don't think 10 years is a long time for someone just starting to become a jazz pro though lol.

Ah well, then that's different, if you've been playing blues / rock for 20 years, then becoming a good jazz improvisor won't take 10 years, probably more like 15 years. Five extra years to undo the habits learned, which are not helpful in most respects. This is not just my experience, but the experience I've noticed in most others I've observed interested in crossing over. I know you can't believe this (neither could I), but the plain fact is that no matter how "gifted" you think you are at rock/blues, the jazz trip is a whole 'nother universe. Sorry to break it to you, but I highly doubt you would achieve what you'd like to in Jazz, not even in 15 years. Better make that 20, at the very least. I'm adding another 5 years for the time you will waste looking for the shortcut (been there, done that).

There is a graveyard as long and wide as the ocean where lie the remains of those who wished to make the perilous journey from rock to Jazz. Most never make it far past the gates. Those with a map and some help get a little further. How many rock players do you know of that made it across? Do you think that a 30 year old Eric Clapton could become like a (22 year old!) Pat Martino, with only 10 short years of gun-to-the-head practice from where he was as a player at 30? You say "of course", I say probably not...

I sincerely hope for your sake that I'm wrong, and would not want to put you off such a journey, but having unrealistic expectations will just leave you discouraged after not too long. Better, I think, to expect it to be the hardest thing you will ever undertake from the outset, that way you will cope better with the ever increasing realisations of just what it takes to be "good" in the eyes of your jazz guitar pro peers.

Just start it, and see where it goes, but please, do it with a good teacher if you want to shave many, many years off such a journey.

On the other hand, if you just wanna learn a handful of jazz lines and a few useful chord grips to impress your friends with, then anyone with a good ear should be able to memorise a dozen solos from Wes, Pass, Martino etc inside a year or so. Your rock pals won't have a clue that you don't actually know what you're doing ...

[djg]

big pile of dung

and for the love of god, ignore the jazz nazis. life is too short.

[Dutchbopper]

i'm a teacher but i'm here only for fun. i got a nice teaching gig and am not fishing for students (or accepting any for that matter). if you want, you can thank me for the info by actually making use of it.

djg is one of the few people here that I have actually met and played with. He is a conservatory trained musician and a fine jazz guitarist. He is one of the guys here I always take very seriously. He knows his shit. I'd take his advice any day.

DB

[Evml]

Ah well, then that's different, if you've been playing blues / rock for 20 years, then becoming a good jazz improvisor won't take 10 years, probably more like 15 years. Five extra years to undo the habits learned, which are not helpful in most respects. This is not just my experience, but the experience I've noticed in most others I've observed interested in crossing over. I know you can't believe this (neither could I), but the plain fact is that no matter how "gifted" you think you are at rock/blues, the jazz trip is a whole 'nother universe. Sorry to break it to you, but I highly doubt you would achieve what you'd like to in Jazz, not even in 15 years. Better make that 20, at the very least. I'm adding another 5 years for the time you will waste looking for the shortcut (been there, done that).

There is a graveyard as long and wide as the ocean where lie the remains of those who wished to make the perilous journey from rock to Jazz. Most never make it far past the gates. Those with a map and some help get a little further. How many rock players do you know of that made it across? Do you think that a 30 year old Eric Clapton could become like a (22 year old!) Pat Martino, with only 10 short years of gun-to-the-head practice from where he was as a player at 30? You say "of course", I say probably not...

I sincerely hope for your sake that I'm wrong, and would not want to put you off such a journey, but having unrealistic expectations will just leave you discouraged after not too long. Better, I think, to expect it to be the hardest thing you will ever undertake from the outset, that way you will cope better with the ever increasing realisations of just what it takes to be "good" in the eyes of your jazz guitar pro peers.

Just start it, and see where it goes, but please, do it with a good teacher if you want to shave many, many years off such a journey.

On the other hand, if you just wanna learn a handful of jazz lines and a few useful chord grips to impress your friends with, then anyone with a good ear should be able to memorise a dozen solos from Wes, Pass, Martino etc inside a year or so. Your rock pals won't have a clue that you don't actually know what you're doing ...

I agree re. unlearning habits. As I said in my reply to StringNavigator, I find the biggest discipline is telling my hands to cool it and play with my head. That being said I'm doubtful there's anyway of actually calculating how long it would take. My interest for the moment is in gauging what is a good way to learn jazz, so that if I feel inspired to work on it here and there I can practice something that will actually help, rather than waste my time learning something I don't really need. And with the help of these fine fellows, I actually feel I'm getting to that point

[Evml]

here's the thing: the material is always the same. it just the way you look at it and organize it. look at graham's post. he sees the same line and for him it represents Em7. which is true as well. guitarist pat martino converts *everything* to minor. over a II-V pat just thinks II. if he wants alterations he just thinks of the II chord a tritone apart. wes montgomery otoh converts everything to major shapes. over a II V he thinks IV. as a listener it is not immediately obvious how the musician thinks since the results sound very similar if not the same. compare these almost trivial concepts from the best of the best with the word salad that you often find in discussions and draw your own conclusions.

This clears up A LOT. In hindsight, I think what was at the bottom of my original question was, are there ways of thinking about it that skip the word salad, lol. I believe you've just explained how there are. Also that's really interesting about Pat Martino, I love his playing so I'm definitely going to look at some of his solo's with that in mind.

the biggest favor you can do for yourself: dont overthink. do the work. it's not rocket science. it's more of a grind. so to stay motivated you have to follow your insticts, i.e. you have to enjoy the grind. that is why plans like: 15 min arp, 15 min rep., 15 min reading, etc, seldom work. practice what you like and be reasonable about the expected outcome.

follow members like grahambop or dutchbopper, both dedicated amateurs with the usual blues/rock background who can play and thus have an informed opinion how an amateur can grow to performance level.

disclaimer: i'm a teacher but i'm here only for fun. i got a nice teaching gig and am not fishing for students (or accepting any for that matter). if you want, you can thank me for the info by actually making use of it.

That's a good way of putting it. Largely what's been frustrating me is that any time I'd sit down to 'grind' I'd end up feeling like what I was doing wasn't meaningful.

I've begun transcribing the rest of Wes' Tune Up solo. I'm going to try and internalize some of those movements keeping in mind he's thinking of it as IV chord material, with a half step drop in the last measure. It already feels like very meaningful practice.

Your advice has been really helpful, I appreciate it.

[djg]

I've begun transcribing the rest of Wes' Tune Up solo. I'm going to try and internalize some of those movements keeping in mind he's thinking of it as IV chord material, with a half step drop in the last measure. It already feels like very meaningful practice.

please dont. it is just more of the same. this is the hardest part of trying to teach. to get people to actually stick to the friggin instructions which are guaranteed to work sometimes i think i should write something similar to the allan carr books about how to quit smoking.

learn the two licks. not more. understand how you can fit them into the progression. if the progression gives you trouble: practice the two licks over II-V-I descending in three keys. you asked for a practice tune. "afternoon in paris" if "tune up" is too hard for you (it shouldnt).
keep it real. document what you do. write down the progression of your practice tune, ask if folks here agree with your chords. record your playing. join the jam groups here.

create a soundcloud or youtube. post a vid of you applying those two licks. do not try to learn more material. if you do you've missed the point. s/o here has the bruce lee quote as a sig:

i do not fear the man who has practiced 10000 moves once but the man who has practiced one move 10000 times. get this tatooed.

what you want to practice: play these two licks over anything you know. all the tunes, all the progressions. not more licks, more applications.

[citizenk74]

Learn songs.

[christianm77]

please dont. it is just more of the same. this is the hardest part of trying to teach. to get people to actually stick to the friggin instructions which are guaranteed to work

the only way I’ve discovered to reliably do this is to make them think it’s their idea.

hard to do on JGO

[Evml]

please dont. it is just more of the same. this is the hardest part of trying to teach. to get people to actually stick to the friggin instructions which are guaranteed to work sometimes i think i should write something similar to the allan carr books about how to quit smoking.

learn the two licks. not more. understand how you can fit them into the progression. if the progression gives you trouble: practice the two licks over II-V-I descending in three keys. you asked for a practice tune. "afternoon in paris" if "tune up" is too hard for you (it shouldnt).
keep it real. document what you do. write down the progression of your practice tune, ask if folks here agree with your chords. record your playing. join the jam groups here.

create a soundcloud or youtube. post a vid of you applying those two licks. do not try to learn more material. if you do you've missed the point. s/o here has the bruce lee quote as a sig:

i do not fear the man who has practiced 10000 moves once but the man who has practiced one move 10000 times. get this tatooed.

what you want to practice: play these two licks over anything you know. all the tunes, all the progressions. not more licks, more applications.

Oh ok that makes sense. I don't know what you mean by see how they fit in the progression though? The way he plays it is.. how it fits. Or do you mean switch it up, different positions/starting points etc.? Like, see how else I can make it fit? Sorry I think I'm missing something

[mr. beaumont]

I say join our weekly jam.

Hell, everybody should join.

[Donplaysguitar]

here's the thing: the material is always the same. it just the way you look at it and organize it. look at graham's post. he sees the same line and for him it represents Em7. which is true as well. guitarist pat martino converts *everything* to minor. over a II-V pat just thinks II. if he wants alterations he just thinks of the II chord a tritone apart. wes montgomery otoh converts everything to major shapes. over a II V he thinks IV. as a listener it is not immediately obvious how the musician thinks since the results sound very similar if not the same. compare these almost trivial concepts from the best of the best with the word salad that you often find in discussions and draw your own conclusions.

the biggest favor you can do for yourself: dont overthink. do the work. it's not rocket science. it's more of a grind. so to stay motivated you have to follow your insticts, i.e. you have to enjoy the grind. that is why plans like: 15 min arp, 15 min rep., 15 min reading, etc, seldom work. practice what you like and be reasonable about the expected outcome.

follow members like grahambop or dutchbopper, both dedicated amateurs with the usual blues/rock background who can play and thus have an informed opinion how an amateur can grow to performance level.

disclaimer: i'm a teacher but i'm here only for fun. i got a nice teaching gig and am not fishing for students (or accepting any for that matter). if you want, you can thank me for the info by actually making use of it.

Actually, time management works - in ALL fields. As I posted, if you have more time use it (exclamation mark)

You know, you may be interested in hobbyist advice, that’s fine but I’m not and never have been. Might as well tell someone about trout fishing hot spots while not practicing.

im an academic, Dutchbopper says you are too. Great. tell us about time management, and tell us about “The Bridge”.

[Evml]

Actually, time management works - in ALL fields. As I posted, if you have more time use it (exclamation mark)

You know, you may be interested in hobbyist advice, that’s fine but I’m not and never have been. Might as well tell someone about trout fishing hot spots while not practicing.

im an academic, Dutchbopper says you are too. Great. tell us about time management, and tell us about “The Bridge”.

I think his point was really just that over-structuring can be counter productive

[princeplanet]

and for the love of god, ignore the jazz nazis. life is too short.

hehe, life is too short indeed, which is why sticking to a program that has been known to work is probably your best shot. And now it appears that djg maybe has found the shortcut! Who'd a thunk that 2 Wes licks gives you the keys to the kingdom? Of course you'll want proof, but I'm sure he can provide you with examples of his students who did manage to cross the great divide from rock to pro Jazz, maybe in way less than 10 years!

So yeah, ignore my pile of dung, as you were ...

[Donplaysguitar]

I think his point was really just that over-structuring can be counter productive

K.

Whatever gets you to playing some nice little jazz blues effectively by 7/1/21 is good for me. How does that timeline work for you?

Just remember, Jazz was born in New Orleans whore houses. It’s a party music. It’s about drinkin, hollerin, smokin and screwin.

I rest on my earlier statements.

[djg]

Oh ok that makes sense. I don't know what you mean by see how they fit in the progression though? The way he plays it is.. how it fits. Or do you mean switch it up, different positions/starting points etc.? Like, see how else I can make it fit? Sorry I think I'm missing something

i wrote 16 bars out for you. you should eventually be able to do this on the spot over tunes. 4 on 6 is actually a very good practise tune. it is based on summertime and has a lot of II-Vs where you can apply your two licks.

edit: here is an example of the point i'm trying to make about how the jazz language is practiced. this is the real world where you need good ears, experience with the process and good reflexes to throw back lines and licks. i was there. edit2: this vid is even better:

[christianm77]

i wrote 16 bars out for you. you should eventually be able to do this on the spot over tunes. 4 on 6 is actually a very good practise tune. it is based on summertime and has a lot of II-Vs where you can apply your two licks.

edit: here is an example of the point i'm trying to make about how the jazz language is practiced. this is the real world where you need good ears, experience with the process and good reflexes to throw back lines and licks. i was there.

Other than that, nice little learning resource. Mind if I steal it?

[djg]

Other than that, nice little learning resource. Mind if I steal it?

it's yours

[Evml]

i wrote 16 bars out for you. you should eventually be able to do this on the spot over tunes. 4 on 6 is actually a very good practise tune. it is based on summertime and has a lot of II-Vs where you can apply your two licks.

edit: here is an example of the point i'm trying to make about how the jazz language is practiced. this is the real world where you need good ears, experience with the process and good reflexes to throw back lines and licks. i was there. edit2: this vid is even better:

thanks

[Evml]

I think I get it!!

where there's a 7th chord, the lick will work in the key for which that chord is the V. If that's the idea, I can see this opening up doors for sure.

Just want to make sure, the A7 in bars 13 and 16 I'm assuming replaces a Cmin (II of Bbmaj) as it's relative major, right?

Cmin / F7 / BbMaj / BbMaj / A7 / F7 / BbMaj / A7

[djg]

I think I get it!!

where there's a 7th chord, the lick will work in the key for which that chord is the V. If that's the idea, I can see this opening up doors for sure.

yes, by playing IV chord licks over the V chord we actually play the upper extensions of the V chord 7 9 11 13. that is why it sounds good.

Just want to make sure, the A7 in bars 13 and 16 I'm assuming replaces a Cmin (II of Bbmaj) as it's relative major, right?

you could see it that way but it is more like going back to the V of the original key (D) for a second. do you know the tune "tune up"?

you think you'd be able to write out/play the two licks over the whole progression of the tune 4 on 6?

here are a few more examples of variations of the same lick. you should be able to recognize it.

2:05 Fmaj7 up and down over Dm7 G7. Gmaj7 up and down over Em7 A7

the very first two licks. Gbmaj7 over Ebm7 Ab7. Bmaj7 over Abm7 Db7

0:09 Gbmaj over Ebm7 Ab7

the two first licks of the melody Ebmaj7 up and down over Cm7