Pre "jazz theory" improv approach?

[christianm77]

I might add that I do think it’s very important to actually play the phrases one learns at some point; but schools of thought vary. Tristano for example really separated singing/ear learning from playing and students had to be able to sing a solo all the way through before playing it.

[christianm77]

Yeah you have to be able to string together phrases. And some of them must be derived from authentic playing that you get from transcribing, listening, and reading. Other phrases can be made up from your intuition and knowledge or theory.

stringing together phrases is a time honoured first step towards improvisation. The cliche is that is much like a language, but it’s true.

once you got that far, theory is a LOT more useful .

[WILSON 1]

If you follow the Barry Harris approach, you'll spend years working on coming up with lines using these basic building blocks over the changes until you can become musically expressive with them. That's one approach.

Have to jump in here and say that this is not the case.

if you take the time to check out TILFBH, Chris Parks' channel, you'll be given examples of inventions created by BH and their application in forming lines.

You may of course reject this style but there is clear one to one association of etude and line creation described and with some serious study you can apply it.

[Evml]

If you follow the Barry Harris approach, you'll spend years working on coming up with lines using these basic building blocks over the changes until you can become musically expressive with them. That's one approach.

If there is a way for someone who is not that interested in jazz and not willing to put in many years into it, to learn jazz improvisation and do it justice, I think we would know it already. The feeling of being so close is always there in one's development, from the very beginning.

This is sort of what I was hoping to hear, because I can be at peace with not being able to play jazz if I tell myself it would take 10 years. It was the idea that I was just missing something that was bothering me.

Thanks for the reply

[Evml]

You may have heard the maxim "Imitate-Assimilate-Innovate", or if one prefers: "Imitate-Assimilate-Improvise".

And you may wonder, should those be executed in a linear fashion? The answer is yes - as in every practice session, not year 1/2/3 or some such.


Imitation refers to copying master soloist's lines. That can be accomplished by learning some lines, etudes, solos or pieces of solos from say... Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery, just for two great examples. Just playing these correctly, with the right feel, articulation, rhythm, expression, tone, and up to tempo is work unto itself. (same as with blues/rock/classical, whatever).

Assimilation - refers to getting this material into your own playing and mode of expression. That involves (1) maintaining and building upon the Imitation part, (2) analysis - so that you understand just what the hell it is that you're playing/what they played, and (3) using practice routines that burn so-called "jazz patterns" into your brain and body so that you can begin to freely express these types of musical ideas outwardly - on impulse.

Improvisation: you know what this one means.


So, for one simple example you could begin with some jazz blues.

1. You could begin to learn Sundown by Wes, (15 minutes of practice)
2. Play the blues etudes in Joe Pass Guitar Style, (15 mins)
3. Play the chord family etudes in Joe Pass on Guitar (major, minor, dominant, altered dominant) (15 mins)
4. Play some long II-V-I patterns in major, in 12 keys (be choosy with these**) (10 mins)
5. Play some short II-V-I patterns in major, in 12 keys (be choosy with these) (10 mins)
6. Play some "turnaound" patterns, in 12 keys, be choosy with these also (10 mins)

Conduct enough analysis of the above so that you know what you're doing (not necessary to do that during practice time, if time is short)

Then play a slow backing track of blues or record your own. Three chords at first if necessary. Improvise and just keep at it. Then add the Mi7 and turnaounds in the usual places with the 12-bar form and improvise on those too.

If you have more time to practice than mentioned above, do it! Get items 1-6 to the point that you can play them without looking at the guitar or music. Make it automatic. Then keep going with your improv and tune studies.

** this is a larger topic, and has to do with the musical make-up/content of the patterns, whether it be chromatics, neighbors, approach notes, enclosures, superimpositions, substitutions, rhythmic variation, etc. There are a lot of vanilla/crap jazz patterns out there in the published jazz ed. market. (sorry)

good advice, thank you!

[Evml]

So, serious questions...Do you like jazz, and do you listen to it?

If the answer is no, you'll never play it. It's just not possible.

yes

[Evml]

Ah, you want the shortcut, the hack, the secret that was right under your nose the whole time... It's so close, maybe you'll find it. It can't be much harder that just blowing pentatonics over E right?

Take a simple tune like Just Friends, create a backing track using the chords. If you can just blow over that and sound good (no clams), then congratulations! You jumped the queue. If you can't, and still want to, well then better find a spare 10,000 hours of meaningful practice, preferably with a good teacher that can play in the style you admire. There's your shortcut, and no it's actually not an exaggeration. If it took you only 100 hours to sound "OK" noodling around with rock scales, it should only take you a hundred times longer (100 x 100) to get "OK" at jazz improv with a good regimen.

Yeah, I know, you think people like me have done it the hard or wrong way, and you're right, It's taken me 30 years instead of 10. 10 years is the shortcut, ask anyone on this forum how many players got good at Jazz improv in only 10 years! I mean pro level good, BTW...

Not to be a smartass... it's just tough love

not so much that I want a hack, more that I want to know whether there is one, so that I can decide if I want to take it up or not, and so that I don't feel too bad about not being able to play jazz

[Evml]

Amazing. A person with zero prior posts and a claimed lack of interest in playing jazz dismisses "theory" (in a way that makes it clear he hasn't actually delved into it in any meaningful way), and you guys are off the races. Fool me once ...

my lack of posts is irrelevant, I'm asking a jazz question on a jazz forum, what's your issue with that?

and I'm not dismissing theory, I'm wondering whether it's over-used. Do not read that as insinuating it's over-used. It's a sincere question. Again, I lack knowledge about jazz, hence I came to a jazz forum.

[Tal_175]

Have to jump in here and say that this is not the case.

if you take the time to check out TILFBH, Chris Parks' channel, you'll be given examples of inventions created by BH and their application in forming lines.

You may of course reject this style but there is clear one to one association of etude and line creation described and with some serious study you can apply it.

May I ask what is it you disagree with? I'm really not sure. Is it "coming up with lines using basic building blocks"?
This was my experience based on attending Howard Rees' workshops, one Barry Harris workshop and at least partly going through 3 BH books (workshop books + Kingstone). By building blocks what I mean is what in BH calls ABC's. I've seen some of Chris's videos also where he does exactly that.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out there are more material used in BH line building than one's I'm aware of. If that's your disagreement, you're probably right but that's a moot point. I wasn't trying to characterize BH improvisation concepts with any sense of completeness. What I was talking about was the general method for becoming conversant with the bebop language. That is working on creating lines over tunes by applying a set of internalized bebop devices over tunes.

[rpjazzguitar]

my lack of posts is irrelevant, I'm asking a jazz question on a jazz forum, what's your issue with that?

and I'm not dismissing theory, I'm wondering whether it's over-used. Do not read that as insinuating it's over-used. It's a sincere question. Again, I lack knowledge about jazz, hence I came to a jazz forum.

There are great players who know no theory whatsover. Read Andres Varady's GP interview.

And, there are great players who are encyclopedic.

Probably more of the latter, but the no-theory players exist.

There are also plenty of players who know a lot of theory and don't sound very good.

And, finally maybe even more who don't know any theory and don't sound good.

Is theory overused? If it takes too much time away from listening, practicing other useful things and playing, well, then, yes.

I have a spotty grasp of theory. For the most part, I haven't found it to make a huge impact on my playing, but there are little pieces of theory here and there that were very significant.

[Tal_175]

This is sort of what I was hoping to hear, because I can be at peace with not being able to play jazz if I tell myself it would take 10 years. It was the idea that I was just missing something that was bothering me.

Thanks for the reply

You're welcome. Just to clarify, I only mentioned the Barry Harris method because you also mentioned him in your OP. I've studied BH materials to some extent and I got many useful things out of them. However I'm not a BH devotee or expert as much as some of the other members in the forum. Things I learned from BH is in the general mix of things I regularly draw on in my own playing and development. But I think there are also other very good approaches discussed in this thread worth checking out. Regardless of the method, consensus seems to be that internalizing the jazz language takes a long (long) time.

[pauln]

But I was already 20 at the time and decided to stick to...

There's nothing wrong with exploring things you don't care for or can't grasp.

I'm not actually all that intent on playing jazz to be honest.

There's nothing wrong with not exploring things you don't care for or can't grasp.

[Evml]

You're welcome. Just to clarify, I only mentioned the Barry Harris method because you also mentioned him in your OP. I've studied BH materials to some extent and I got many useful things out of them. However I'm not a BH devotee or expert as much as some of the other members in the forum. Things I learned from BH is in the general mix of things I regularly draw on in my own playing and development. Regardless of the method, consensus seems to be that internalizing the jazz language takes a long (long) time.

His criticism of contemporary jazz is what struck me. Superfluous chord alterations, undanceable, etc. To me his criticism is basically that it's been dried out by academics. I'm not qualified to say whether this is really true or not, but I do find that older jazz records are far more emotionally compelling. They (generally) sound less academic to me, more heartfelt.

[Clint 55]

not so much that I want a hack, more that I want to know whether there is one, so that I can decide if I want to take it up or not, and so that I don't feel too bad about not being able to play jazz

No, it takes a lot of work. You have to integrate complex concepts into your playing. It takes dedicated study of some sort to make progress. I don't want to say theory or people will freak out.

[Evml]

There's nothing wrong with exploring things you don't care for or can't grasp.



There's nothing wrong with not exploring things you don't care for or can't grasp.

I don't know what this means.

[Clint 55]

I don't know what this means.

Everyone's running amok!

[WILSON 1]

May I ask what is it you disagree with?
.

Sure.

You suggested that BH methods require years or more to implement. And I disagree.

Very few of the TILFBH videos do not include applications that are understandable and useable immediately.

[Evml]

Everyone's running amok!

I was thinking, nothing matters.

[Tal_175]

Sure.

You suggested that BH methods require years or more to implement. And I disagree.

Very few of the TILFBH videos do not include applications that are understandable and useable immediately.

But I think the context of the thread is not how long it takes to get one device into your playing, or how long it takes to conceptually grasp them.

I think what OP is wondering is how long it takes for a new student of jazz to become a fluent jazz improviser.

[Clint 55]

OP you're right. Pro jazzers are usually not jumping from scale to scale at thr passing of each chord. Some have that skill. But it's more of getting it intuitively where you can employ the devices you've learned that suit the tune. Jazz educators in school a lot of the time don't teach you how to do it.

[Donplaysguitar]

This is sort of what I was hoping to hear, because I can be at peace with not being able to play jazz if I tell myself it would take 10 years. It was the idea that I was just missing something that was bothering me.

Thanks for the reply

It doesn't take 10 years if you have the time and use it well. (Who is Pat Metheny, who is Andreas Varady, who is Joey Alexander?)

Work is measured in effort hours, not calendar time. A lot of other activities take up the time in a day. Consider the 8-hour work day vs. 24-hour full day. If you sleep 8 hours that leaves 8 more.

Time management, will power, focus, and talent.

[pauln]

But I was already 20 at the time and decided to stick to...
There's nothing wrong with exploring things you don't care for or can't grasp.

I'm not actually all that intent on playing jazz to be honest.
There's nothing wrong with not exploring things you don't care for or can't grasp.

I don't know what this means.

If you make a list of famous guitarists, most of them will be referred by type as a blues, or jazz, or rock, or country, or whatever kind of guitarist. This is because of their visibility through recordings and concerts - they tend to "stick to" something. However, when they were just ordinary people becoming guitarists, they likely explored a little of everything because of curiosity - everything has something to teach you.

Once one becomes famous, continued viability pressures may require that you knock off exploring things outside your commercial brand music form. New guitarists may not realize that what looks like the single paths of famous brand guitarists are really the covered up convergence of multiple branch paths explored prior to commercial fame.

That first line was just a suggestion that no guitarist really only played one kind of music from day one, and it does wonders to explore things you might not initially like or might not understand. The second line was that you are also free not to follow that suggestion.

[Evml]

But I was already 20 at the time and decided to stick to...
There's nothing wrong with exploring things you don't care for or can't grasp.

I'm not actually all that intent on playing jazz to be honest.
There's nothing wrong with not exploring things you don't care for or can't grasp.



If you make a list of famous guitarists, most of them will be referred by type as a blues, or jazz, or rock, or country, or whatever kind of guitarist. This is because of their visibility through recordings and concerts - they tend to "stick to" something. However, when they were just ordinary people becoming guitarists, they likely explored a little of everything because of curiosity - everything has something to teach you.

Once one becomes famous, continued viability pressures may require that you knock off exploring things outside your commercial brand music form. New guitarists may not realize that what looks like the single paths of famous brand guitarists are really the covered up convergence of multiple branch paths explored prior to commercial fame.

That first line was just a suggestion that no guitarist really only played one kind of music from day one, and it does wonders to explore things you might not initially like or might not understand. The second line was that you are also free not to follow that suggestion.

ah, well said!

[Evml]

It doesn't take 10 years if you have the time and use it well. (Who is Pat Metheny, who is Andreas Varady, who is Joey Alexander?)

Work is measured in effort hours, not calendar time. A lot of other activities take up the time in a day. Consider the 8-hour work day vs. 24-hour full day. If you sleep 8 hours that leaves 8 more.

Time management, will power, focus, and talent.

Good point. 10 years is probably an exaggeration. But I do think I'd need to set aside other aspirations and focus really hard on building jazz lines for a while, and the truth is I don't think I want it bad enough. I took some jazz courses some years back cause I was bored with other styles, ended up learning a bunch of theory and playing classical music for while and inadvertently learned to write music and am now far from bored with other styles lol. It's just that I've got these almost-jazz skills lying around and sometimes I feel I could just touch em up a bit and call myself a jazz player. But really I don't think that's true, and I'd rather just not bother than be a jazz dilettante. Do it 100% or don't do it is generally my approach.

All that said, I may mess around with it here and there and who knows, maybe by the time I'm 40 I'll be able to play a little jazz. Cause everytime I decide I'm not going to bother I find myself drawn back to it. Kind of frustrating honestly because it distracts me from other things I'm doing that have more immediate practical value.

[Evml]

OP you're right. Pro jazzers are usually not jumping from scale to scale at thr passing of each chord. Some have that skill. But it's more of getting it intuitively where you can employ the devices you've learned that suit the tune. Jazz educators in school a lot of the time don't teach you how to do it.

Maybe it would be fair to say the idea is to have enough tricks up your sleeve that you have the option to bring out a chord change if you want, but otherwise can just improvise freely? Like in Impressions for example. I've always been obsessed with Wes' version. I find his lines are incredibly musical and fresh even though he's not using all these crazy alterations etc. That's partly what informed my suspicion that there was a simpler way to go about it than you might think. That feeling goes away when I try playing over a 2-5-1 only using the root scale... lol