Pre "jazz theory" improv approach?

[Evml]

Can anyone recommend a tune that demonstrates some 2-5-1 approaches? I really enjoy learning solo's by ear but I'd like to start doing this on tunes where I can actually understand the chord changes, and that uses changes that are common (unlike, say Four on Six).

[Moonray]

This whole thread reminds me of some graffiti I once saw on the side of our local Theosophical Society building :


Questions answered - Answers questioned

[Evml]

here's your pre-theory approach. our study tune is "tune up". our study material is this recording:

we study the two licks from 0:39 to 0:42. buy the track, loop and slow down this section, and play along until you can play these two licks as close to the original as possible. tempo is not important, they sound good at any speed. play only those two licks wherever possible. the whole tune can be realized with those two licks but you'll have to transpose them. maybe find new fingerings. note that wes' progression offers an extra ii-V, namely:

Em7 / A7 /Dmaj7 / Ebm7 Ab7 /

record yourself. post here for advice.

So what is going on here? The first lick looks to me like Dmaj7 (over the 5? what? that's the opposite of what I was taught?).

The 2nd lick looks like F#Maj (over Ebm and Ab7) *brain explodes*

This sums up my usual experience with jazz quite well. To my hands, it's easy. To my brain, it's... well I kinda wanna die.

Usually this leads me to conclude I'm not cut out for learning jazz.

[Donplaysguitar]

So what is going on here? The first lick looks to me like Dmaj7 (over the 5? what? that's the opposite of what I was taught?).

The 2nd lick looks like F#Maj (over Ebm and Ab7) *brain explodes*

This sums up my usual experience with jazz quite well. To my hands, it's easy. To my brain, it's... well I kinda wanna die.

Usually this leads me to conclude I'm not cut out for learning jazz.

well I didn’t transcribe it but if you’re saying that he played a GbMaj over Ebm that would be simple. Superimposition. In other words, that’s a II-V in Db, and he played the IV chord over the II. Or played a rootless IImi9. Either way that’s very vanilla and very consistent with post bop players, don’t you agree?

if we want to play tensions, altered tensions, upper structures or however you want to think about it, we’re not always going to start from the root of the named chord, right? That’s very unhip Humpty Dumpty shit (pardon my french).

there is such a thing as “improvisation theory” and we can all use a little of it at least.

[Clint 55]

Can anyone recommend a tune that demonstrates some 2-5-1 approaches? I really enjoy learning solo's by ear but I'd like to start doing this on tunes where I can actually understand the chord changes, and that uses changes that are common (unlike, say Four on Six).

Autumn Leaves is a circle of fifths progression - all 2-5s lol. All the things you are is also hella 2-5s.

Maybe it would be fair to say the idea is to have enough tricks up your sleeve that you have the option to bring out a chord change if you want, but otherwise can just improvise freely? Like in Impressions for example. I've always been obsessed with Wes' version. I find his lines are incredibly musical and fresh even though he's not using all these crazy alterations etc. That's partly what informed my suspicion that there was a simpler way to go about it than you might think. That feeling goes away when I try playing over a 2-5-1 only using the root scale... lol

There are several ways to look at being able to play the correct notes, but from an interest standpoint, you are gonna want to shoot for multiple ways to play something besides whatever scale for the key center. Embellishing on the melody is always good, arps are always good, you've got ur regular scale - that's already 3 things. Transcribe a riff to the tune you're working on and add it in there and you're already on ur way. Arrange those things to where you can play fluently between ideas and you're not hitting bad notes that kill the momentum. When you link together good ideas that build on each other and build interest beyond just the main key scale, then you're starting to cook.

[Evml]

well I didn’t transcribe it but if you’re saying that he played a GbMaj over Ebm that would be simple. Superimposition. In other words, that’s a II-V in Db, and he played the IV chord over the II. Or played a rootless IImi9. Either way that’s very vanilla and very consistent with post bop players, don’t you agree?

if we want to play tensions, altered tensions, upper structures or however you want to think about it, we’re not always going to start from the root of the named chord, right? That’s very unhip Humpty Dumpty shit (pardon my french).

there is such a thing as “improvisation theory” and we can all use a little of it at least.

I don't know what's vanilla and consistent with post bop players. I only have a basic and primitive grasp of jazz theory: create tension with notes outside the safe notes, like with chromaticism or dominant/diminished sounds. Playing a IV over a II is not something I'm familiar with. That's why I'm asking. Thanks for the answer.

there is such a thing as “improvisation theory” and we can all use a little of it at least.

yeah that's why I'm on here posting. I don't get it are you shitting on me for asking a question cause I don't know something? I don't get having an attitude towards a guy admitting ignorance and asking for help.

[Evml]

Autumn Leaves is a circle of fifths progression - all 2-5s lol. All the things you are is also hella 2-5s.



There are several ways to look at being able to play the correct notes, but from an interest standpoint, you are gonna want to shoot for multiple ways to play something besides whatever scale for the key center. Embellishing on the melody is always good, arps are always good, you've got ur regular scale - that's already 3 things. Transcribe a riff to the tune you're working on and add it in there and you're already on ur way. Arrange those things to where you can play fluently between ideas and you're not hitting bad notes that kill the momentum. When you link together good ideas that build on each other and build interest beyond just the main key scale, then you're starting to cook.

good advice, thanks.

[christianm77]

I haven’t had much luck teaching Barry Harris to beginning jazz improvisers. Usually they need to spend some time with chord tones and learning licks.

[djg]

yeah that's why I'm on here posting. I don't get it are you shitting on me for asking a question cause I don't know something? I don't get having an attitude towards a guy admitting ignorance and asking for help.

ignore this guy. he is the resident troll who gets banned several times per year and has to make a new account. nobody has ever heard him play which probably is a good thing.

here is what you need to know:

music is based on the principle of tension and release. every key has a dominant chord that leads back to the tonic. this is the basic V-I progression. tension-release. in C: G7 C.

if you want a more subtle build of the tension you can use the IV chord to build up tension going to the V chord. so our more subtle progression is now IV V I. or in C: F G7 C.

the most important thing you learn today: the IV chord can be replaced with the II chord.

in C: F can be replaced by Dm7.

right now, it is not important that you understand why this is, just accept it as a fact. so in C your progression can now also be: Dm7 G7 C. the classic II-V-I. every good jazz player is a master of II-V movements.

if you want to improvise over the II V I you do not need to spell out every chord. over the II V section you can choose to just play over the Dm7 or just the G7. since we have subbed the IV chord with the II chord we can mentally go back and pretend that the IV chord is still there and play over it.

never forget: we improvise over the principle of tension-release. we do *not* improvise over chords.

so the example i gave you is in D. if you check out the first lick again you'll find that it is actually a Gmaj lick over Em7 A7. IV chord material played over a II-V. same with the next lick. Gbmaj over Ebm7 Ab7. IV over II-V (it is also basically honeysuckle rose)

if you internalise these sounds you will recognize them in all the jazz solos from the 40s on. it'll be like a blanket being removed from the music.

so your job is to write out the progression over tune up with the extra II-Vs and post it here. then you fill the whole tune with your two licks and post the result. rinse and repeat.

[Lobomov]

Usually this leads me to conclude I'm not cut out for learning jazz.

Check out this guy:
Christiaan van Hemert - YouTube

He has a couple of vids on the subject, where he advocates learning licks from the masters instead of theory. The first of which is this one:

Great channel btw, you could do a lot worse than giving him your time/money

[rpjazzguitar]

Here's a useful thing that Warren Nunes taught.

There are two kinds of chords, type 1 and type 2.

Type 1 are tonics. Type 2 are dominants.

In the key of C

Cmaj7 Em7 Gmaj7 Am7 are all completely interchangeable.

Dm7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5 are also interchangeable.

The Gmaj7 has an F# which is not in the key, but it's commonly played and will usually sound good.

Jimmy Bruno points out that you can even play type 1 sounds over the type 2 chords, if you do it right.

[Average Joe]

Man, some of you guys are harsh. The man asks a question, and you'd think he kicked your puppy or something.

I don't believe there are shortcuts. I think however that as far as theory is concerned it's worth remembering that it as servant not a master. If you learn a tune, then listen to one or more of the greats play over it, then pick up ideas from those - THEN the theory becomes relevant. It's very useful to understand the principles if you want to apply them later on. But the fundamental part is the actual music - the tunes, the changes and the actual playing. Playing the music will tell you what you need to learn, the holes in your knowledge or facility. You need some how under your fingers before the why of how becomes relevant.

[grahambop]

So what is going on here? The first lick looks to me like Dmaj7 (over the 5? what? that's the opposite of what I was taught?).

The 2nd lick looks like F#Maj (over Ebm and Ab7) *brain explodes*

This sums up my usual experience with jazz quite well. To my hands, it's easy. To my brain, it's... well I kinda wanna die.

Usually this leads me to conclude I'm not cut out for learning jazz.

No, you are over-complicating it. The first lick is really just an Emin ascending arpeggio which then comes back down using A7 notes. (and Em and A7 are virtually the same thing to a jazz player). That it starts on an F# is normal, just a standard jazz approach note, i.e. start on the 9th (or 2nd, whatever you want to call it). Wes did that a lot, it was one of the first things I learned by copying his phrases. In fact this lick looks exactly like the kind of thing I learned on day one of teaching myself to play jazz.

The second lick is virtually the same thing, just a semitone down, i.e. Ebm arpeggio up then uses Ab7 notes.

So nothing here is odd or inconsistent with the chords.

[StringNavigator]

10 years ago I took some jazz lessons, theory of how to build lines over chord changes...if none of these guys had what we know as 'jazz theory,' ...How did they think of it?...I can solo over something like Impressions with a Dorian mode/blues scale, because there's no changes. When I try the same thing over a 2-5-1, it works, but I definitely feel I could be bringing out the changes more...I know about voice leadings..."target notes," superimposing, diminished scales, but to incorporate these things makes it impossible to just relax and play something that actually sounds musical...anyone I've heard explain how to build lines is not being totally honest about how it's done...this is a huge topic/question, really just curious what folks think about all this...

Jazz always was "horn" music. The very nature of all jazz lines. From outdoor New Orleans tuba marching bands to Creole indoor double bass dance bands. Other instruments in jazz simply borrowed a "horn" concept.

The "jazz trick" is right in your face, but no one can see it, because everyone acts without thinking. Oh, Jaazzz...! We play jaaazzzz.... Mixing and the Matching Harmonic Minor Modes and arpeggios will never create a melody. It's a different process. Regurgitating note gamuts is different from hunting for a melodic sequence.

There's a whole mom-and-pop business that has been created by wannabee music-pseudo-teachers with no education promising the answer to desperate young wannabee guitar heroes. They use the old "music-is-like-language" analogy or even "sacred geometry" to sell books. After you read the biography, contents, index, glossary, recommendations, introduction, preface, how to use this book, musical rudiments, abbreviations, chord grid explanation key, photos of author's guitar, photos of the authour on holiday using the $30 you paid for a "fresh-air sandwich" book, photo's of the author's guitar heroes, photos of him and his dog smokin' a pipe by the lake, first words, last words, career advice, and conclusion... well, there ain't many pages remaining for you to actually learn something, is there?

The trick is not a trick. There are no "tricks". Tricks are for kids...
Just stop working hoarse-backwards.

WHY MAKE UP A MELODY TO AN ACCOMPANIMENT?
For generations, Europeans composed the melody and then used rules of harmony to compose an accompaniment.

Yes, Alice! Start with the melody. Like a horn player would do. Read it or play it by ear. It is then the job of the accompanist to voice the chord progression. Not the other way around.

Read the words... melody... accompaniment...
Which must come first?

Is it no wonder that no one can play jaaazzz...? Four years of schooling and they still can't play jazz. But they can play the mixolydian scale in two octaves in thirds ascending and descending!! And Yes, if you "anal-lies" any jazz tune, and rip the soul out of it, you will come up with three hyper-phrygian altered upper-structure substitutions that will take your breath away. There are 30 entire books written on that alone. As Jokin' Joe once said, "Come-On, Man!" Just whistle a happy melody and then play somethin' behind it to make it sound pretty. It's music, not rocket science. Even brain surgery is mostly poke and cut!

Music is all about melody. Not about chords, scales, modes and arpeggios. Music teachers will describe the water to you while you are drowning. Save your money. Do what all the past greats did. They knew, from common sense, that you just hunt and peck at the piano until you get a melody. Then you hunt a peck a bit more to find the accompaniment that the melody has already suggested by it's very existence.

There!! Problem solved...Run away from your musical colleges and go out and compose melodies.
90% of Music College Graduates are pumping gas and parking cars. (I know... I heard it in a song.)
Kudos to the 10% who assist uneducated composers in making music.

Music is a delicacy best enjoyed by amateurs who become rich by working, earning, saving and investing in some real line of work. You'll have plenty of time in your twilight years to sit like a bump on a log in some community orchestra blowing footballs and wearing goofy hats to please the geriatric social workers. Chasing a musical career is like playing basketball. Less than 1% will do well.

Personally, I always wanted to run away and join the circus, but would I end up retired and sitting around and playing guitar in my garage without a clock to punch. Or would I be headed for the nearest box store applying for a Door Greeter job?

And all the most memorable melodies were composed on a piano.
When I was a kid, I seen hundreds of pianos sitting in second hand stores until they were eventually salvaged for firewood and scrap metal dealers. Everyone was buying their gittharrz...
That was the real death of music.

If you are a musician and do not own a keyboard, you'll never develop melodies and their accompaniments. All music, of any note, was composed on a piano. The Grand Staff of Music was invented for piano. It is the piano keyboard on paper.

Trying to invent a melody to match a chord progression is the opposite of common sense. Successful jazz improvisers have played so many melodies that they thoroughly know the map through the forest and are capable of taking many routes to get from one place to another. So they can improvise any melody on any single-note horn. A horn player deals in melody and not in chord progressions. They have arrangers for that. The guitarist must think like a horn player, learn some piano, and learn how to come up with an accompaniment. The "mystique" of improvisation is a huckster's way of getting you to fork over your money for endless lessons. Music is not a "Magic Trick". It's about discovering a melody.


__________________________________________________ _________________
I'd like to confess that once or twice in my youth I played music as a professional.

[djg]

lol. i'm out.

[StringNavigator]

Noone can scat sing a good solo.

Except for Ella.
Everyone else makes me ill and I have to leave the room.

[christianm77]

One thing I find helpful; don’t always relate the harmony of a line to the original song chords.

Do that only after you worked out what the soloist is outlining in their line on their own.

[Donplaysguitar]

I don't know what's vanilla and consistent with post bop players. I only have a basic and primitive grasp of jazz theory: create tension with notes outside the safe notes, like with chromaticism or dominant/diminished sounds. Playing a IV over a II is not something I'm familiar with. That's why I'm asking. Thanks for the answer.



yeah that's why I'm on here posting. I don't get it are you shitting on me for asking a question cause I don't know something? I don't get having an attitude towards a guy admitting ignorance and asking for help.

OK - Going on the internet is not the way to learn something that has any depth to it. It's a way to get some quick helpful information, so I'll do more of that.

Go back to my detailed post and start on that. Try it for 3 months and see how it goes. What do you have to lose?
also -
Buy Bert Ligon's and Garrison Fewell's books, and study them. And to Jeff''s point, listen to jazz every day. Try Sirius XM Real Jazz.

That's for starters.

[Donplaysguitar]

ignore this guy.

Troll huh? Not. I offered some very useful and down to earth advice to the OP before you did, and frankly believe it to be much more useful than what you offered, so there is that.

And not that it's owed, but at least 15 samples of my amatuer playing has been posted, so there is that too.

[DonEsteban]

Buy Bert Ligon's books, and study them

Don't know Garrison Fewell but I definitively second your advice reg. the Bert Ligon books.

"Connecting Chords With Linear Harmony" alone could solve OP'S problems...



Connecting Chords With Linear Harmony

[Donplaysguitar]

Don't know Garrison Fewell but I definitively second your advice reg. the Bert Ligon books.

"Connecting Chords With Linear Harmony" alone could solve OP'S problems...



Connecting Chords With Linear Harmony

Agreed, that book is a gold mine.

[Gabor]

If you're able to play nice within a key without looking at the fretboard, freely over the neck, then it's quite possible to learn to react to key changes (even anticipate) and instantly continue in the correct key without worries. It just takes a loo..oo..ng time. But is possible. Totally possible.

long time, yes.

...and after those "within the key" thing, one must learn how to create tension...
...and after routinely can create tension and release can start to play somethin interesting
...and after can play interesting then that is the time to express something meaningful...

piece of cake

[princeplanet]

Good point. 10 years is probably an exaggeration.....

Really? I've been on this forum for 12 years, and I thought I would have noticed by now if any posters here found a way to become a pro jazz improvisor in less than 10 years. Maybe I'm wrong? If that's the case then hands up, anyone, who got to pro level in 10 years or less? If you think that's you, then kindly enlighten the OP regarding how you got there, and then maybe try informing the rest of us!

[Evml]

Really? I've been on this forum for 12 years, and I thought I would have noticed by now if any posters here found a way to become a pro jazz improvisor in less than 10 years. Maybe I'm wrong? If that's the case then hands up, anyone, who got to pro level in 10 years or less? If you think that's you, then kindly enlighten the OP regarding how you got there, and then maybe try informing the rest of us!

Oh I just meant for me, with my present experience (about 20 years of playing classic blues and rock) if I started now practicing strictly jazz, I don't think it would take 10 years. Like I'm probably half way there or something. I definitely don't think 10 years is a long time for someone just starting to become a jazz pro though lol.

[Evml]

Jazz always was "horn" music. The very nature of all jazz lines. From outdoor New Orleans tuba marching bands to Creole indoor double bass dance bands. Other instruments in jazz simply borrowed a "horn" concept.

Funny you say that, most of the jazz I listen to is horn players, more so than guitar that is. Something I've always found difficult about learning jazz on guitar is that it's hard to make single notes sound good without embellishments, so to tell my hands to just take it easy and let my head to the driving takes a LOT of discipline. Whereas on a horn just 1 or 2 notes can have so much character.

If you are a musician and do not own a keyboard, you'll never develop melodies and their accompaniments. All music, of any note, was composed on a piano. The Grand Staff of Music was invented for piano. It is the piano keyboard on paper.

and funny you say that, cause I took up keys recently and that's actually what has led to this latest desire to tinker around with some jazz again hehe.