Soloing over "Like Someone In Love?"

[lawson-stone]

Like so many others here, you just typed a solo. I believe the magic of playing strong lines over changes can NEVER be captured in a before-the-fact summing up of scale possibilities. The fact is simply that good players do not play scales. The actual music you hear is the language and the scales are not that. CST may be a good starting point but if you get stuck with it and perceive and handle it as a definitive way to play jazz, you will end up sounding really bad.

Personally I'd take a good solo and listen to what is going on there.

I am not saying CST is without merit. But you have to move beyond all this scale talk. CST is not the jazz language in the end.

I am saying this because the pontification on theory here goes on and on and on ... I find that kind of tiring and some might even think it's the definitive way to go. Well, I listened closely to the clips of all the heavy hitters on theory here and apparently there is no relation between knowing theory and playing well. That's because playing a good solo is a lot harder than typing one.

CST is as much a good starting point as it is a false safety net.

DB

I certainly resonate with your comments here, Dick. It was listening to your clip several weeks back that really got me thinking I wanted to use this tune as an extended study on soloing. I hope to post something soon. It won't be great, maybe not much of an improvement over what I posted earlier. But even when I'm playing the same things, it feels different. I feel like I can use this tune now to move around the instrument. I can hear things that I didn't hear before. I think it's also about time to move on, but playing this tune for a while every day, trying to improvise with it, and thinking about what I actually did when I liked what I played, has been good.

Thanks for all that you contribute to this forum. I never miss one of your posts.

[jzucker]

Hey Jack I certainly agree and am currently trying to immerse myself in various performances of this tune. I'd love to hear you give it a go. That's not a challenge, of course, but a wish. I think you'd bring something to this medium-tempo tune that would be inspiring.

I will do that. By the way, you should consider joining my fb group, modern jazz guitar. Jonathan Kreisberg, Adam Rogers, Stanley Jordan, Paul Bollenback, Randy Johnston, Pasquale Grasso, Peter Bernstein, Uffe Stein, Dan Wilson, Cecil Alexander, Peter Mazza, Rodney Jones and many other great players are there. We just started a new feature where each week or so, we post a backing track and all have a go playing over it.

it's at www.facebook.com/groups/modernjazzguitar

[lawson-stone]

I will do that. By the way, you should consider joining my fb group, modern jazz guitar. Jonathan Kreisberg, Adam Rogers, Stanley Jordan, Paul Bollenback, Randy Johnston, Pasquale Grasso, Peter Bernstein, Uffe Stein, Dan Wilson, Cecil Alexander, Peter Mazza, Rodney Jones and many other great players are there. We just started a new feature where each week or so, we post a backing track and all have a go playing over it.

it's at www.facebook.com/groups/modernjazzguitar

I'd love to hear your approach on LSIL. That group sounds pretty high-powered. I might enjoy lurking, but int hat company, I think I'd need to keep my mouth shut!

[ragman1]

I liked DB's post because, essentially, I agree with it.

But, let's be fair, although theoretical analysis doesn't lead to good solos, playing a solo isn't some sort of magic. We have to have some idea of what we're doing before we begin otherwise you're looking at a potential car crash.

Coltrane, in that vid, is playing a lot of runs with consecutive notes, not just arpeggios. They're obviously in sync with the chord/s so they must have some relation to those chords and the tune itself. To any ear they represent a scale, or part of one certainly.

So one has to ask where the theory ends and the ability to play good notes starts? Sheer experience can't be given to someone, it has to come.

I think rp has probably over-analysed it - and it won't by itself produce a fluid solo - but I wouldn't say that no sort of analysis at all is necessary, particularly of a new tune.

Or, if we don't like the word analysis, let's call it preparation, or reconnaissance, or something :-)

[rpjazzguitar]

I liked DB's post because, essentially, I agree with it.

But, let's be fair, although theoretical analysis doesn't lead to good solos, playing a solo isn't some sort of magic. We have to have some idea of what we're doing before we begin otherwise you're looking at a potential car crash.

Coltrane, in that vid, is playing a lot of runs with consecutive notes, not just arpeggios. They're obviously in sync with the chord/s so they must have some relation to those chords and the tune itself. To any ear they represent a scale, or part of one certainly.

So one has to ask where the theory ends and the ability to play good notes starts? Sheer experience can't be given to someone, it has to come.

I think rp has probably over-analysed it - and it won't by itself produce a fluid solo - but I wouldn't say that no sort of analysis at all is necessary, particularly of a new tune.

Or, if we don't like the word analysis, let's call it preparation, or reconnaissance, or something :-)

Considering I was actually trying to post a sort of anti-theoretical approach to the tune, the fact that it came across as an over-analysis shows how utterly I failed.

I have posted repeatedly the notion of strumming the chords, scat singing, and putting that on the guitar. When you get bored with what you can create that way, then it's time to expand vocabulary. For me, that's best done by listening. I've gotten precious little from a lot of time expended with theory, and I've posted that ad nauseum.

The point I was trying to make about Like Someone In Love was that almost the entire tune feels to me like a descending line and to phrase with that sound in mind.

I tried to flesh out the details of how the tune accomplishes that.

When I play this tune, I just try to maintain awareness of the sound of the song, melody and harmony, and play what I'm singing in my head. If I get hung up for some reason, I know the chord tones and I have a vague idea of the tonal centers. That awareness is the safety net, not the trapeze.

[lawson-stone]

Considering I was actually trying to post a sort of anti-theoretical approach to the tune, the fact that it came across as an over-analysis shows how utterly I failed.

I have posted repeatedly the notion of strumming the chords, scat singing, and putting that on the guitar. When you get bored with what you can create that way, then it's time to expand vocabulary. For me, that's best done by listening. I've gotten precious little from a lot of time expended with theory, and I've posted that ad nauseum.

The point I was trying to make about Like Someone In Love was that almost the entire tune feels to me like a descending line and to phrase with that sound in mind.

I tried to flesh out the details of how the tune accomplishes that.

When I play this tune, I just try to maintain awareness of the sound of the song, melody and harmony, and play what I'm singing in my head. If I get hung up for some reason, I know the chord tones and I have a vague idea of the tonal centers. That awareness is the safety net, not the trapeze.

I get what you were saying. I think there is a difference between looking at the chords in abstraction and projecting possible solo ideas, versus playing over the changes and roughing out some ideas about what to do, expressed in terms of scale ideas. I took your words as the latter.

Meanwhile, I continue to probe all the ways to be irredeemably lame playing this tune.

[jzucker]

i wasn't inferring that rp's analysis was bad it's just that writing about improvising is tough because few people can read the technical details without their eyes glazing over. You guys might consider putting some of your ideas up on soundslice. I've been doing that lately and it seems to be very helpful.

[lawson-stone]

i wasn't inferring that rp's analysis was bad it's just that writing about improvising is tough because few people can read the technical details without their eyes glazing over. You guys might consider putting some of your ideas up on soundslice. I've been doing that lately and it seems to be very helpful.

Both hearing good solo ideas and then seeing a brief explanation could be useful. I know that after-the-fact theory observations don't typically reproduce what was going on in the player's awareness in the moment, but it can still be insightful.

[ragman1]

Considering I was actually trying to post a sort of anti-theoretical approach to the tune, the fact that it came across as an over-analysis shows how utterly I failed.

You didn't fail. I re-read your post and saw you'd actually emphasised practical rather than theoretical approaches, hence my post :-)

But the whole thing did come over as a bit over-analytical at first glance, to be honest. I think that's what got all the reactions.

[ragman1]

consider putting some of your ideas up on soundslice.

Oh, I've been suggesting that for years but it doesn't seem to be very popular. I do it frequently and always feel like a bit of a nuisance :-)

[rpjazzguitar]

rp -

Going back to your post, I think there's no doubt about what you say. It's incontrovertible, the roots of the chords definitely descend:

| Eb D | C Bb | A Ab | G C (could be F# tritone) |
| F | Bb | Eb (A tritone) | Bb Eb (A tritone) |
| Ab | G | C | % |

You said you wanted to bring that out in your playing, in a solo. But how would you do it? Is there a danger it could sound a bit like a downward spiral and end up a bit gloomy? Possibly?

What do you say? Have any recorded players you've heard done it that way?

Just a thought. The melody, incidentally, doesn't do that, it sort of complements it. Or rather they compliment each other.

Here we go, an annoying tiny soundclip!

See, I'm not sure it makes a lot of difference, the tune still predominates.

When I scat sing a line I don't seem to duplicate the downward motion. The first one I just did began with big jumps (octaves or close) generally moving in an upward direction. I didn't give it any conscious thought, but, in reviewing the idea, it felt like I was respecting the downward spiral without actually playing it. I'll try to do a video later. No matter what you do, the downward thing is in the tune anyway.

[lawson-stone]

Perhaps the descending bass line could be suggested, not actually executed. By hitting a few, using guide tones, one could gesture at that pattern but not hew to it absolutely.

[lawson-stone]

For what it's worth, here's my effort at ornamenting the tune and a solo. I made this about 3 weeks ago and posted it on another thread, but thought I'd post it here. My current efforts are not much different from this, though I think I'm feeling more confidence than I did when this was recorded, and I have a few more ideas I'm working with.

For me, a big challenge is always knowing where I am in the form, and how to tag the changes just enough to keep things on track.

[ragman1]

That was well thought out. It was just getting exciting when you stopped :-)

[lawson-stone]

That was well thought out. It was just getting exciting when you stopped :-)

Better to leave folks wishing the clip had been longer!

[rpjazzguitar]

All right. I take back everything I said.

I sat down to play Like Someone In Love and couldn't think about any of what I wrote about. I hear the tune in my mind, and I play.

I like some of it, I don't like all of it, but the better parts are characteristic of what I'm trying to do. The idea of pivots, scales etc - none of that stuff - crossed my mind. And, I can't always play what I scat sing -- seems to be mood related -- and I did that only to a limited degree in this take.

For some reason, the file wouldn't load as an attachment. Even though the URL above worked fine when I pasted it into an address line. Sorry for any inconvenience.

[ragman1]

rp -

Hooray! But that was lovely. It didn't sound like you'd worked it all out, you weren't playing by rote like a machine, etc, it sounded fluent, it swung... how good has it got to be?

Thank you. Do some more!

[rpjazzguitar]

rp -

Going back to your post, I think there's no doubt about what you say. It's incontrovertible, the roots of the chords definitely descend:

| Eb D | C Bb | A Ab | G C (could be F# tritone) |
| F | Bb | Eb (A tritone) | Bb Eb (A tritone) |
| Ab | G | C | % |

You said you wanted to bring that out in your playing, in a solo. But how would you do it? Is there a danger it could sound a bit like a downward spiral and end up a bit gloomy? Possibly?

What do you say? Have any recorded players you've heard done it that way?

Just a thought. The melody, incidentally, doesn't do that, it sort of complements it. Or rather they compliment each other.

Here we go, an annoying tiny soundclip!

See, I'm not sure it makes a lot of difference, the tune still predominates.

Makes the point. And, you found some melancholy in the tune -- I hadn't realized the tune could feel that way. It's very cool.

[ragman1]

you found some melancholy in the tune

Somewhat accidental, I suspect, but thank you :-)

It's actually quite a fun test of soloing skills. Put down the bass for a 3-chord number like Happy Birthday or some easy country or folk song and you'll find it fairly easy to bring out the sound of the chords. But try it with a much more complex jazz tune and it's quite revealing.

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

All right. I take back everything I said. I sat down to play Like Someone In Love and couldn't think about any of what I wrote about. I hear the tune in my mind, and I play.

Exactly. You confirm my point that typing a solo is completely different than playing one. I see theoretical dissertations here - usually as advise to other players - by guys that use all kinds of scales and subs, sometimes pretty sophisticated stuff, that is totally absent in their own playing when I check out their clips. No melodic or harmonic minor content or altered sounds in miles around. In some cases it's no more than diatonic noodling. I find that kind of theoretical pontification by those players useless. It creates a separate reality from where you really are in your playing. It's not honest. It's posing.

I don't give much advice here but I would suggest that if you cannot play what you pontificate on in an advice to others ... do not advise it. Way better is to post sound clips of stuff that you can play and discuss that!

That said, RP jazzguitar, you have the guts to post clips and therefore kudos to you!!!!

DB

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

For me, a big challenge is always knowing where I am in the form, and how to tag the changes just enough to keep things on track.

Nice going Lawson.

DB

[grahambop]

Looking forward to doing some great solos on this vintage axe I’ve bought.

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

Looking forward to doing some great solos on this vintage axe I’ve bought.

Congrats on the new axe! I'm sure you can type some great solos on it!

DB

[lawson-stone]

Nice going Lawson.

DB

Coming from you that means a lot. All I'm "thinking" in this is about the handful of tension points. I'm also trying to think of melodies not licks, though the licks come in when I get momentarily confused. Or maybe momentarily not confused.

[lawson-stone]

All right. I take back everything I said.

I sat down to play Like Someone In Love and couldn't think about any of what I wrote about. I hear the tune in my mind, and I play.

I like some of it, I don't like all of it, but the better parts are characteristic of what I'm trying to do. The idea of pivots, scales etc - none of that stuff - crossed my mind. And, I can't always play what I scat sing -- seems to be mood related -- and I did that only to a limited degree in this take.

For some reason, the file wouldn't load as an attachment. Even though the URL above worked fine when I pasted it into an address line. Sorry for any inconvenience.

That was really nice. A very "singing" solo, which is what I long to be able to do consistently. Thanks for posting. I got some ideas that I hope to be able to use.