About the speed thing

**grahambop** · 04-02-2020, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I know. I checked out at 45:00.

This is so cool I’m going to transcribe it. Just hope I’ve got enough paper left.

**zdub** · 04-02-2020, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I know. I checked out at 45:00.

Here's the transcription - it just keeps getting better and better!

AMAZING 1 HOUR GUITAR SOLO (MUST WATCH).pdf | DocDroid

**ccroft** · 04-02-2020, 10:17 PM

I just saw a Tony Rice where somebody did the same thing to him.

I love Martino. Been listening to him from the beginning, but this little habit he gets into from time to time is something I really do not enjoy. I'll also admit that I'm not that fond of bars and bars of straight 16ths either. I like to hear a phrase or 3. And for me that goes for all the instruments.

Anyways... my thoughts on speed are you need it. And you need everything else as well.

It's such a guitar thing: speed is good up to a point and then it's not. You don't hear it about piano, violin, and horn players in the same way. I've thought that speed is an easy way for laymen to decide who's a good guitarist and who isn't. I guess 'cause everyone knows it's hard.

I played in fusion groups through the 70's. That music demanded speed from the guitarists. I learned how to do it. Otherwise nobody noticed you, and nobody wanted to play with you. I stopped playing for a long time and picked up a few years ago. I've been working on my old fusion chops. I've been working on a lot of other things too. Like playing chords and soloing on changes :-)

I like what someone said about fluency. I want to be able to use everything.

**charlieparker** · 04-02-2020, 11:20 PM

Speed is a tool to convey emotion, feelings, and energy, IMHO. When Parker and Powell are burning their music has an incredible drive and at the same time they are playing great lines with twists and turns that delight the ear.

**wintermoon** · 04-03-2020, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by John A.

I know what you mean about Martino's repetition, but experiencing that sort of thing the in the flesh is a very different experience from a recording or a video.

John

different strokes but if you've seen him in person, he builds that tension w/the band building behind him and then drops back in, very exciting.
you don't need to be flying all over the fingerboard to create tension, some of Grant Green's lines are like this and work very well for him.

I've used that device more than once and it can be a crowd pleaser, but ymmv

**grahambop** · 04-03-2020, 05:00 AM

Even though I know that Martino video is just a loop, I swear Scofield’s smile looks a tiny bit more forced and desperate each time it goes round.

**DB's Jazz Guitar Blog** · 04-03-2020, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

It’s like he’s bored of music tbh. Too easy. He got the cheat codes. Competed every level.

True. I love that guy. The most perfect time feel, endless chops and creativity. I have said it earlier. If there were an intergalactic jazz guitar contest I'd send in Bireli as earth's contender.

DB

**DB's Jazz Guitar Blog** · 04-03-2020, 06:10 AM

I can't play fast, so I don't play flurries of meaningless notes. But, I'm absolutely certain that if I had the chops, that's exactly what I'd do.

A note is a note and cannot be meaningless. If you play a lick twice or three times as fast as normally on a higher tempo suddenly it becomes meaningless? Because it is fast? That same lick? Does not make sense to me.

And, now in general (so not aimed at you). All the bop masters I mentioned play more or less the same meaningful content, both on lower and higher tempi. So why like the slow tempi and dislike the fast parts?

DB

**DB's Jazz Guitar Blog** · 04-03-2020, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by charlieparker

Speed is a tool to convey emotion, feelings, and energy, IMHO. When Parker and Powell are burning their music has an incredible drive and at the same time they are playing great lines with twists and turns that delight the ear.

Exactly. Playing fast is just a tool that comes with the trade. Speed is an essential ingredient when you want to play bop. Let's have a look at Wikipedia:

Bebop or bop is a style of jazz developed in the early to mid-1940s in the United States, which features songs characterized by a fast tempo, complex chord progressions with rapid chord changes and numerous changes of key, instrumental virtuosity, and improvisation based on a combination of harmonic structure, the use of scales and occasional references to the melody.

Speed is ONE of the hallmarks of bop and therefore a necessary tool.

If a guy seriously lacks speed, even the heads of many bop standards will be beyond him and that's ok for a student or fun player (anything goes there) but surely not for a guy that is serious about his playing, let alone a pro.

It's a non discussion really.

DB

**cosmic gumbo** · 04-03-2020, 06:15 AM

I just always figured that technical virtuosity was one of the hallmarks of jazz since the beginning. A big part of the tradition has always been wowing fans with some fast tempos, and you had to be able to hang. Up to a certain point jazz was music for musicians who wanted to show off their chops, it was kinda expected and kept lots of slackers from being part of the brotherhood.

Don't we all usually expect jazz musicians to have exceptional skills???

**grahambop** · 04-03-2020, 06:40 AM

Well you guys have got me finally working on my speed chops after all these years (it’s amazing how you can get addicted to practising during the lockdown!)

I’m doing what Pasquale Grasso suggested in a video, i.e. playing at your maximum comfortable speed with a metronome, then just increasing it by one increment every few days.

In a year I will be just as fast as Pasquale!

**DB's Jazz Guitar Blog** · 04-03-2020, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I still don't have really great musical ideas in my head to start with!

That's where it all starts Lawson. I find your honesty and introspection soooo refreshing.

Now get back to your guitar and practise some more ...

DB

**digger** · 04-03-2020, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog

If a guy seriously lacks speed, even the heads of many bop standards will be beyond him and that's ok for a student or fun player

Well, the above is me, so take my view with a pinch of salt, and as I said earlier, I'm sure if I could play faster and hear faster then I'd be happy and more inclined to do so, so I'm probably just rationalising my lack of ability. But another thought crosses my mind: is the speed thing part of the reason why we ending up asking why jazz isn't more popular? Somewhere along the line we want our music to appeal to non-players, and do non-players care for the speed as much as we do? I know my better half often remarks "What's that? I like that." when I'm listening to some jazz. But that never happens when it's some superfast jazz-shred-fest. Although, Joscho, who Mr. B mentioned earlier, does actually pass that test. His playing, even at speed, always has a fun and easily-hearable quality to it.

Derek

**christianm77** · 04-03-2020, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog

True. I love that guy. The most perfect time feel, endless chops and creativity. I have said it earlier. If there were an intergalactic jazz guitar contest I'd send in Bireli as earth's contender.

DB

Haha!

For people who haven’t fully grasped Birelli’s power level:

**DB's Jazz Guitar Blog** · 04-03-2020, 07:52 AM

And his metal, fusion and blues stuff:

**christianm77** · 04-03-2020, 07:59 AM

However it must be said that’s some classic bee in a jam jar 80s shred fizz he’s got going on there.

what is he using, a Boss Metalzone?

**christianm77** · 04-03-2020, 08:03 AM

A boss DS1 into an AER?

**DB's Jazz Guitar Blog** · 04-03-2020, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

However it must be said that’s some classic bee in a jam jar 80s shred fizz he’s got going on there.

what is he using, a Boss Metalzone?

Yeah, sound is so so. It's part of some educational stuff he did for DM music school. They locked him up in a small studio in the sweltering heat and recorded a 100 clips or so haha. Probably run his guitar through some DI box.

His live fusion sounds are much better.

DB

**christianm77** · 04-03-2020, 08:07 AM

#freebireli

**bonsritmos** · 04-03-2020, 08:16 AM

I hear you , DB, its about mastery of time and space .

i love burners who have mastered time and space, but , i want to give hope to those who are intimidated by fast tempos . i want to encourage them to look at it as a groove and if they know a song well and can hold their part in the groove, they can easily get by with less notes.

but i love the on the edge gun slingers , who know time and the song and groove and holding their part.

cats with chops who dont have the groove will make it a long night

also , im perplexed at the people that rip off super fast runs on medium tempos but cant handle up tempos. it means they haven mastered the groove

**bonsritmos** · 04-03-2020, 08:20 AM

by the way, i have never seen a super well executed up tempo bop / modal ( i dont mean loose linear phrasing that doesnt give up the one and no one on the bandstand or audience knows where it is) bomb in front of and audience. its one of the most exiting things in music when done right

**ragman1** · 04-03-2020, 08:41 AM

Jimmy could burn. I'm not saying I like it but wheee!

**bonsritmos** · 04-03-2020, 09:06 AM

6:31

well if we are bringing in cats, i got to bring in Richie Hart with Dr Lonnie Smith, check out 6:31

that is how you play up tempo guitar in the groove

**djg** · 04-03-2020, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by bonsritmos

6:31

well if we are bringing in cats, i got to bring in Richie Hart with Dr Lonnie Smith, check out 6:31

that is how you play up tempo guitar in the groove

funny, i was watching the video this very second. you may be a right-wing lunatic but i still dig the playing

(i have lots of that stuff from arthurs, digs den, la salsa, etc. dont ask

)

**pingu** · 04-03-2020, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

I just always figured that technical virtuosity was one of the hallmarks of jazz since the beginning. A big part of the tradition has always been wowing fans with some fast tempos, and you had to be able to hang. Up to a certain point jazz was music for musicians who wanted to show off their chops, it was kinda expected and kept lots of slackers from being part of the brotherhood.

Don't we all usually expect jazz musicians to have exceptional skills???

I can dig the pure skills speed thing .... for maybe a tune or two
but it can get into a sport contest type thing really quick
(see what did there)

I don't have the speed thing down at all ,
I can't hear up tempo very well , or play it
I freely admit I'd LOVE to have the chops !
I now know I never will (I'm 63)
Shame , but there it is .....

There's a particular Sax player I jam with who
likes hard and fast stuff bop ,
it used to intimidate me when he pointed at me to take a solo
aaaargh , crash , burn etc
but I'm more comfortable with it now
I don't try to do a Pat Martino thing any more ....

i sound more like the head of Cherokee!
strangely it goes over ok with the audience fine

lucky ....there are an infinite amount of ways
to explore and express the music ....