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  1. #51

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    by the way, i have never seen a super well executed up tempo bop / modal ( i dont mean loose linear phrasing that doesnt give up the one and no one on the bandstand or audience knows where it is) bomb in front of and audience. its one of the most exiting things in music when done right

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  3. #52

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    Jimmy could burn. I'm not saying I like it but wheee!


  4. #53

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    6:31

    well if we are bringing in cats, i got to bring in Richie Hart with Dr Lonnie Smith, check out 6:31

    that is how you play up tempo guitar in the groove

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by bonsritmos


    6:31

    well if we are bringing in cats, i got to bring in Richie Hart with Dr Lonnie Smith, check out 6:31

    that is how you play up tempo guitar in the groove
    funny, i was watching the video this very second. you may be a right-wing lunatic but i still dig the playing

    (i have lots of that stuff from arthurs, digs den, la salsa, etc. dont ask )

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    I just always figured that technical virtuosity was one of the hallmarks of jazz since the beginning. A big part of the tradition has always been wowing fans with some fast tempos, and you had to be able to hang. Up to a certain point jazz was music for musicians who wanted to show off their chops, it was kinda expected and kept lots of slackers from being part of the brotherhood.

    Don't we all usually expect jazz musicians to have exceptional skills???
    I can dig the pure skills speed thing .... for maybe a tune or two
    but it can get into a sport contest type thing really quick
    (see what did there)

    I don't have the speed thing down at all ,
    I can't hear up tempo very well , or play it
    I freely admit I'd LOVE to have the chops !
    I now know I never will (I'm 63)
    Shame , but there it is .....

    There's a particular Sax player I jam with who
    likes hard and fast stuff bop ,
    it used to intimidate me when he pointed at me to take a solo
    aaaargh , crash , burn etc
    but I'm more comfortable with it now
    I don't try to do a Pat Martino thing any more ....

    i sound more like the head of Cherokee!
    strangely it goes over ok with the audience fine

    lucky ....there are an infinite amount of ways
    to explore and express the music ....

  7. #56

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    hahaha , cat , im not right wing ( quetioning W.H.O. and CCP , and noting taiwan is right wing ?hahaha) , i considered myself a democrat until they started leaning on socialism , ive seen socialism fail close up.now im independent

    since i had to clarify that hahaha ill bring in an edge guitarist from brazil and how he does it on samba

    rogerio piva



    by the way, the very best thing to do with up tempo is play a beautiful balled afterwards. you wil be having an incredable balance

  8. #57

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    That Richie Hart jawn is my kind of fast playing...the kind where the band doesn't get quieter for the guitar solo.

  9. #58

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    Perhaps I've missed it, but I don't think anyone has focused on one's "musical personality." For me, it's not fast/slow, but rather have you discovered your own unique musical personality? The first goal of any musician is to master technique, theory and repertoire. That's a given. And, in doing so, if you're fortunate, you'll discover yourself. I have never thought in the terms of fast/slow, but rather how to put my own personal stamp on my performance(s). However, most musicians start with an idol. And, then they try to emulate their idol. This is also a necessary path to finding one's self. But at a certain point you'll discover if you're an imitator or an original. Most, in my experience, will never find their voice and will be labeled throughout their life as "he sounds like Wes . . . he sounds like Joe . . ." And, in regards to the concept of pure speed, this is a unique biological function not something everyone can achieve through diligence and practice. However, it IS NOT the holy grail of performance but rather another cat's eye in one's bag of marbles. So, for me, speed is another color in one's palette . . however, it is not the only color . . . and if that is the case, most will become easily bored with your paintings. Good playing . . . Marinero

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    True that.

    DB

    As a former saxophonist, it's called "circular breathing"-- a Barnum and Bailey technique used to delight the unwashed masses.
    Good playing . . . Marinero

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    As a former saxophonist, it's called "circular breathing"-- a Barnum and Bailey technique used to delight the unwashed masses.
    Good playing . . . Marinero
    Didn't Roland Kirk employ that technique?

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by TOMMO
    Didn't Roland Kirk employ that technique?
    Yes . . . and it was still a gimmick. That was a popular thing in the 70's/80's. Many saxers used it for the B and B effect as its musicality, for me, was zero. Just google: Musicians who used circular breathing, Tommo. I haven't heard it for years. Good playing . . . Marinero

  13. #62

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    yeah mr beumont, i love richies playing too...look out dpj , mr beumont, you like ups , we have to cross paths haha (dpj , cat if you like ups , i also dont care where you stand politicly , im more interested you can play ...man this thread is making me want to practice.hahah

    but, people, i hear everyone , good point marinero. wes could kill ups he just played less notes , if you understand the groove , you have everything.

    to the people i hear saying you wish you could play faster , i feel for you, and i want to tell you, if you sat down and learned 3 bell parts from Ketu Candomble , half timed them also, and built a solo off those bell parts , i could take you at a tremendously fast tempo and you would be swinging like crazy.

    its where you place those notes. man, that sax guy playing charlie parker style, he rarely gave you a pivot point . some rhythmic marking that lines everyone up. yes, the rhythm section has to keep the time solid as a rock at up tempo , but, the soloist has a responsibility to dish out pivot points occaisionaly at strategic points in the song structure . at high ups , you have to hold hands , that is a serious part of negotiating a really fast up succesfully. and i love someone who will hold hands and give me the one when at the right moments. i need the comunication more than just chop speed, but if they hold hands , play the song so you can hear where they are going, and can put the edge on it, look out , im going to sweat some

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Perhaps I've missed it, but I don't think anyone has focused on one's "musical personality." For me, it's not fast/slow, but rather have you discovered your own unique musical personality? The first goal of any musician is to master technique, theory and repertoire. That's a given. And, in doing so, if you're fortunate, you'll discover yourself. I have never thought in the terms of fast/slow, but rather how to put my own personal stamp on my performance(s)
    Nothing to disagree here. I have repeatedly stated that the juxtaposition of fast and slow does not exist at a certain level anymore. They are two sides of the same coin, namely expressing your personality at slow and fast tempi.

    DB

  15. #64

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    Hi DB not only at 450bpm but in all 12 keys not at 450 still outrageous.

  16. #65

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    About the speed thing... it's not one thing; perhaps more like three things.

    Objective speed
    Imagine a pedal that didn't change the tone or add any effects but just counted the number of notes as a function of time, with an integration tail similar to a VU meter and a display scaled to notes per second. This is one of the least important things to worry about.

    Musician's subjective speed
    This is how fast the player feels he is playing, a relative feeling that is confounded by how it feels, how long they have played, the difficulty of what they play, their personal mode of playing (what's in their mind), etc. This is one of the least important things to worry about.

    Audience subjective speed
    Apart from musicians in the audience, and especially those who play your instrument, I don't think they notice and distinguish speed per se much at all. What they experience is the projection of things more like competence, confidence, fluidity, phrasing, articulation, expressiveness, authenticity, etc... but not in those terms, more like they just have the feeling that they like it. This is also confounded because these same terms describe the attributes that make them like slower playing, too.

    I noticed long ago that two guitarists may play the same thing at the same objective speed, but one may sound slower and the other faster. Audience subjective speed is far more variable than objective speed, much more malleable, and I don't mean speed as just "how fast" but also "how slow". I make a singular focus on the audience liking what I play, watching them to see what they respond to, and changing various dimensions of the songs - which includes making slow tunes "sound faster" or fast tunes "sound slower" if it looks like that is the mood they're in and what they would like to hear.

  17. #66

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    i just say some things to the people who wish they could play faster.

    a thing i can tell really fast , is when a soloist is crutching on the rhythm section , or , being like the james brown movie , and know their instrument is really a drum. a great soloist is funtioning with the rhythm section instead of waiting to hear the rhythm section state the form and then throwing in some notes . this lesson was drivin home watching joe henderson have to work with a local young rhythm section at a gig i saw , and they were good for their age, but werent laying down direction . joe took the whole thing on his back and was the force of a rhythm section , led with easy to hear ideas , and they followed and joe made it happen because he had so much self contained in him. those rules for up tempo are even more relevant with that , not crutching

    and the other thing , i am preparing this next ketu candomble codes in jazz youtube , and i was doing stuff with art tatum , james p johnson, armstrong, some tempos really really fast, and im showing how they are phrasing all in the groove and it relates to these ketu codes. the more i deal with this, the more it keeps hammering home to me how integrated into the jazz paramaters these codes are. and how much our heroes were playing off these concepts ( they didnt think it was ketu, it was their own cultural background that is the same as the people who invented ketu in brazil).

    i mentioned pivot points in a solo, i also mentioned a guy could just play these bell parts as the phrasing and i could take them to tempos they couldnt beleive, and ive done that with a guy as an experiment so i know how powerful it is. these bell parts are all pivot point. you dont have to think ketu, but, understand the phrasings of our idols, have a cultural origin and if you unerstand that, every aspect of your jazz rhythms phrasing playing would get more centered . and that includes ups and ballads ( they even have a beat that fits with ballads )

  18. #67

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    I am moved again to share the anecdotal tale of the great Johnny Smith who left NYC at his peak after he lost both his newborn daughter and wife during childbirth. He sent his remaining young daughter to his mother in Colorado and joined them a year later after finishing his NY obligations. He raised his daughter and ran a music store, did some recording, but steady gigging days were done.

    Here's the point: he openly admitted that when he left his very busy performing career in NYC, that his chops would never again be at their peak, because no amount of woodshedding would equal the skills you get from being on the bandstand delivering it night after night.

    I got my speed chops together about 15 years ago, but the gigs just were not there, so I just didn't have the time to maintain them. In the working climate for jazz musicians, only a few get to do it every day professionally, so I certainly don't find any shame that lots of amateur and part-time guys just don't have the time to dedicate to speed. Use it, or lose it. But it is a heavy price to pay to maintain it if you don't gig all the time.

  19. #68

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    I think that’s well put cosmic. It’s not ultimately a competition. As an amateur (and right now we are all amateurs) you if it pleases you to make music however you can, that’s the main thing.

    sad story about JS, holy shit.

  20. #69

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    i think if someone is going to keep their chops up at up tempos, its out of pure passion.

    not many gigs pay for it, audiences love it though, make no mistake

    most musicians cant play a good up, it really is kind of a specialty , so its hard to get people together who can actualy do it

    i totaly agree you have to hone this on the bandstand but ill add the studio. the studio will magnify your errors more than anything. you can get away with some things on the bandstand that go by so fast people cant hear it .

    but ive been away from new york over 30 years, but i dont let my chops dip. im too pasionate about playing up bop, because it makes me feel so good. it seems only at those tempos i can actualy exorcise my demons.

    so , i get gigs, and on my gigs, we are playing up bop sometime...and i record in the studio and i make youtubes. i chisel out a space because i love it too much

    i dont blame cats for deciding they dont want to deal with it

    but, the title on this forum is "jazz" guitar. the history of jazz , has a very powerful up tempo estetic and history, the same as cuban music, brazilian music , most afro diasporic expresions have a fast strong power ethic in their cultural expresion , and i like all of them, gua gua co, sambao, merengue , comparsira , frevo , galope etc

  21. #70

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    Some very insightful posts here on this thread. Thank you all, so much, for your thoughts.

  22. #71

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    This would have been my kind of conversation up until a few years ago. I loved speed and relentlessness in my Jazz. Now, I need more of a mix of tempos.

    But the big thing that resonates with me is DB's comment about master musicians. I also found that when I slowed their music down (simple using Windows media player and a CD or changing the speed in a Youtube video under settings), I was amazed at the musicality the solos had. Just amazed.

    Now, there were some stinkers, but the stinkers in my opinion were already lacking even at speed.

  23. #72

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    just want to put in another quick thing to the people who want to get into up tempo but dont think they can.

    first , i had a gateway record , and it was "four and more " by miles. and practiced everyday with that, and trane .

    for a guitar player, its great, there is no guitar player and you want to get in there and try to comp along with the band and try to get that comp into the groove and holding your part. the big thing in ketu candomble is that they have two drums playing the same part and it usualy follows the bell but not always. that is three people holding down their syncopated repeating groove , while a soloist plays over it. that is exactly what we are suposed to be doing in a jazz rhythm section , of course jazz has made it an implication as much as pouding one on every chord, but its coming off those older traditions that were more blatent.

    you shouldnt enter the up tempo ring expecting to be making 3 pointers and dunks. take short layups with both hands and short jumpers. move into it slowly but surly. after you feel you can hold down the form in the four and more or what ever your up practice record is, then start throwing out your lines always looking to come back in the groove with your line.

    the main thing is to feel the groove and form at that tempo, try to learn to think quick , dont crutch on the rhythm section. four and more is great for that or elvin because they are playing slippery and you do have to hold your time to get through with those records.

    dont get discoureged, expect at first you will lose the form or something, go right back and do it again. soon its going to get like a habit...and you might get addicted...hahah

    good luck , dont give up, im joyfully waiting for you all so i can play up tempo bop with you

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Jimmy could burn. I'm not saying I like it but wheee!

    I usually get bored (or maybe it's ear fatigue or something) after about 15 seconds of hearing an endless barrage of notes. However, that doesn't happen when I listen to Jimmy Bruno play at this speed. I can't put my finger on why, but he holds my interest throughout the entire tune. Maybe it's because he has such a gift for still playing melodically even at warp speed. And the crystal clarity of every note is amazing.
    Last edited by Jack E Blue; 04-05-2020 at 03:49 PM.

  25. #74

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    Not really my cuppa, but I agree on this Bruno. For me it's the pauses and the rhythmic variation and invention. IE phrasing. He's comfortable and fluent. And there's even some double stops and chords. A lot of guys who are playing at the top end of their speed zone seem to forget we can play more than one note at a time.

    I used to complain to a sax playing friend about how hard it is to play fast on guitar, due to the coordination of picking and fingering. I wanted to blow like Trane. Sax guy: "Yeah... well... you can play more than one note at a time. Why don't you do more of that? I would if I could!"

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E Blue
    I usually get bored (or maybe it's ear fatigue or something) after about 15 seconds of hearing an endless barrage of notes. However, that doesn't happen when I listen to Jimmy Bruno play at this speed. I can't put my finger on why, but he holds my interest throughout the entire tune. Maybe it's because he has such a gift for still playing melodically even at warp speed. And the crystal clarity of even note is amazing.
    I don't see how Jimmy Bruno is special in this respect. All the guys I mentioned in my OP play melodically and chrystal clear at high tempi. Pat Martino, Jesse van Ruller, Martijn van Iterson, Andreas Oberg, George Benson, Bireli Lagrene, heck even 1950s Tal Farlow and 1960s Joe Pass etc. etc. could pull this off.

    DB