About the speed thing

[arielcee]

I've never tried speed. Cocaine though....

[christianm77]

It’s all about rhythm innit.

do you play interesting rhythms or boring rhythms?

very few guitarists are as rhythmically interesting at top tempo as the best sax or piano players. The sheer technique necessary to get running 8ths up to say 360bpm is itself, I suspect, a greater achievement technically on the guitar with all the issues of picking and so on.

But Bud and Bird were playing triplets ornamentation at that kind of tempo (!) not just 8ths, and all kinds of hip rhythmic accents.

so on the whole I often don’t find fast guitar playing as inspiring musically. There are some exceptions though.

If I could find a way of dealing with those tempos that was funkier and less notey I would do it. That is less usual than strings of 8ths.

[Litterick]

Virtuosity is a mystery to me. I do not understand the appeal of hearing a lot of guitar notes in rapid succession, beyond delight in the showmanship. C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre.

[djg]

If I could find a way of dealing with those tempos that was funkier and less notey I would do it. That is less usual than strings of 8ths.

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

so on the whole I often don’t find fast guitar playing as inspiring musically. There are some exceptions though.
.

So a guy that plays boring stuff on high tempi will magically sound interesting at slower tempi? I think not.
A good player plays good stuff both on slow and high tempi. A weak player will sound bad both slow and fast. The guys I mentioned in my OP are highly musical always, at every tempo. That was the essence of my message. The content is still there.

So how can the same content be less inspring at higher tempo??????

I was not talking about mediocre players, amateurs or students.

Tell me what is NOT musical anymore here:

It's all there. Only faster.

DB

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

Here's a fast solo by van Ruller. Pffffff .... Very inspiring if you ask me ... again it's all there.

DB

[christianm77]

This is ‘only’ about 270. JVR makes it feel relaxed and musical and phrases interestingly. I mean, that’s not nothing. He doesn’t make it sound fast.

(OTOH i think the Bruno solo is about as well as I’ve heard any guitarist handle 300.)

dont get me wrong... bebop guitar playing wise these guys are obviously the shit, the top of the class, and it’s one hell of an achievement to play that way, but for real insane speed with fluent musicality and rhythmic inventiveness in bop you have to look to sax and piano. That’s always the inspiration.

note on the JVR solo, it’s telling to me the way he weights notes. I reckon that’s what makes it sound relaxed. He’s placing the accents in the pocket and sounds to me like treating the connecting eighths as ornaments.

that’s extremely hard to do with picking, it sounds like he’s not using slurs from first listening, although I haven’t sat down and studied his style. The guitar doesn’t really want to do that.

[arielcee]

Chops are just building blocks. You can build the Pentagon or you can build Angkor Wat.

[DB's Jazz Guitar Blog]

I dont get me wrong... jazz guitar playing wise these guys are obviously the shit, and it’s one hell of an achievement to play that way, but for real insane speed with fluent musicality and rhythmic inventiveness you have to look to sax and piano.

Ah, I see. You are talking about 300 + BPM. No argument there. The limitations of the instrument are obvious. The guitar will never get near the sax and the piano.

Here's an attempt by my countryman Wim den Herder. No impro but as a freak show kind of interesting. He got quite a lot of publicity because of this vid 14 years ago. He even played this live on stage!!!!!!

The "chorus" effect is there because he is playing over the original solo by Peterson:

[christianm77]

Here is a good exercise for anyone wanting to increase their tempo ceiling.

Load up your DAW and set the metronome on 1 and 3. This way you are playing in sixteenths. Now, practice playing only on ‘e’ and ‘a’, checking with the DAW that you are nailing it, you can swing it you want, but check that your placement is consistent even if it’s not on the grid, right?

Start around 100bpm (200 in swing terms) and set the metronome faster and faster. See where it all falls apart.

technically this is no harder than playing 8ths at a medium tempo, but perceptually it’s a different thing.

OK, so you practice this and then play a solo with a uptempo track tapping your foot on 1 and 3. Half time.

Alternatively if you don’t have a DAW or want an extra challenge, you can set the click to the ‘a’ and see if it stays there.

Tap your foot on 1 and 3. If you tap your foot at the same time as the click, or with the click on ‘and’, as is likely - stop and restart. Do this for no more than 5m at a time because it will drive you mad at first.

you might need to start slower with this one. Also, you are free to swing the 16ths if you like by placing the click closer to your beat.

i find this helpful and humbling. It does things to your chops as well.

[christianm77]

Ah, I see. You are talking about 300 + BPM. No argument there. The limitations of the instrument are obvious. The guitar will never get near the sax and the piano.

Here's an attempt by my countryman Wim den Herder. No impro but as a freak show kind of interesting. He got quite a lot of publicity because of this vid 14 years ago. He even played this live on stage!!!!!!

The "chorus" effect is there because he is playing over the original solo by Peterson:

ah yes, that dude!

TBF the Netherlands does seem to have the real speed freaks haha.

[Vladan]

A good player plays good stuff both on slow and high tempi. A weak player will sound bad both slow and fast. The guys I mentioned in my OP are highly musical always, at every tempo. ...

I was not talking about mediocre players, amateurs or students. ...

That is the main thing. Player can handle the speed, or can not. To say something like: " ... has chops, but can not grove at speed ...", or "... can grove, but only with limited pool of ideas ...", is nonsense, That player has no chops for that speed, no more, no less.

Regarding amateurs, students and mediocre.
It is really important not to overestimate own abilities. One should be able to objectively compare own technique and musical content against really good players..Not only top shelf masters. Even 2nd and 3rd echelon, as well as old and damaged, including those who were never top tier even in their prime.
All the chest-thumping as well as compliments from exalted "friends" won't make lame become good. Do not fall for it.
Practice and applied knowledge do make better, but one have to remain objective.

Teaching is different issue. You do not have to play at all.

Also, better player does not mean better music. Many times you will enjoy final product of lesser player better, as long as he knows what he is doing, or have the right idea/ feeling about what he is after.

[bonsritmos]

i played one beautiful gig with this guy, jimmy ponder , and he was very memoriable because i could follow him so easily . this is about as good an example i can find of playing up with a few notes and they count

its about understanding the groove , giving pivot points . loved the guy playing peterson but peterson is laying huge time doing sride , if that guitar player knows how to do pivot points while playing like that , it would be great ,but if he whips off lots of notes with pivot points its a long night

i love the variety of guitar players i have played with and their differant aproaches. if its like jimmy ponder , a few greatly placed notes exceptionaly in the groove, fantastic, if its like jimmy , great, i love the fast guns

rogerio piva is good for that , he doesnt have the big picture , but he can really dig in and i love it

ryo kawasake had a differant sound but could kill up tempo.

as long as cats are really giving me some time, some direction to follow, i love all the aproaches on up bop.

just not linear lines that never give up a pivot point , too spaced out , dragging time

[lawson-stone]

Here is a good exercise for anyone wanting to increase their tempo ceiling.

Load up your DAW and set the metronome on 1 and 3. This way you are playing in sixteenths. Now, practice playing only on ‘e’ and ‘a’, checking with the DAW that you are nailing it, you can swing it you want, but check that your placement is consistent even if it’s not on the grid, right?

Start around 100bpm (200 in swing terms) and set the metronome faster and faster. See where it all falls apart.

technically this is no harder than playing 8ths at a medium tempo, but perceptually it’s a different thing.

OK, so you practice this and then play a solo with a uptempo track tapping your foot on 1 and 3. Half time.

Alternatively if you don’t have a DAW or want an extra challenge, you can set the click to the ‘a’ and see if it stays there.

Tap your foot on 1 and 3. If you tap your foot at the same time as the click, or with the click on ‘and’, as is likely - stop and restart. Do this for no more than 5m at a time because it will drive you mad at first.

you might need to start slower with this one. Also, you are free to swing the 16ths if you like by placing the click closer to your beat.

i find this helpful and humbling. It does things to your chops as well.

I'm embarrassed to ask... but what do you mean by playing only on "e" and "a"--you mean the strings? I think maybe not?

[christianm77]

I'm embarrassed to ask... but what do you mean by playing only on "e" and "a"--you mean the strings? I think maybe not?

You count sixteenth notes

1 e and a 2 e and a 3 e and a 4 e and a

so e = second 16th, e = fourth 16th

[lawson-stone]

You count sixteenth notes

1 e and a 2 e and a 3 e and a 4 e and a

so e = second 16th, e = fourth 16th

Ah, I see. I've not made the acquaintance of very many 16th notes in my jazz guitar career...

[christianm77]

Ah, I see. I've not made the acquaintance of very many 16th notes in my jazz guitar career...

yeah so, you practice uptempo stuff in half time so you/feel count 8th notes as 16ths. Gets rid of a load of the tension.

try it on Donna Lee. May take a while to get it together

Boppers tap their foot on 1 and 3....

[lawson-stone]

yeah so, you practice uptempo stuff in half time so you/feel count 8th notes as 16ths. Gets rid of a load of the tension.

try it on Donna Lee. May take a while to get it together

Boppers tap their foot on 1 and 3....

Funny you'd mention this. But on some of the Jimmy Raney solos I've learned, as I cleared maybe 180 and pressed toward the (for me) magic 200 bpm I found I was tapping on 1/3 just because it seemed easier. When I"m in the throes of learning, I bounce that whole left leg on the quarter note beat, but as I master something, and as it smooths out, I do notice I'm tapping every other beat... maybe I need to pay more attention to that.

[Jack E Blue]

... Boppers tap their foot on 1 and 3....

Christian,
This is off the topic of speed, but I'd like your opinion on feeling the metronome on 2 and 4. Many people advocate this. Is it something worth spending time on? I'm asking because I have trouble doing it and would need to devote a lot of time to get the hang of it.

[bonsritmos]

ok, i cant hold this back from a thread about up tempo , there is one monster richie hart solo on here, not the same one as the video, and its one of the hottest guitar solos in jazz ive played with , i got to say

richie solo 3:14-6:21

now that is nice up tempo, but later we did one at this tempo and richie isnt soloing on this but check out his comp , its so on point and at that fast its so cool to have that coming at you

16:18-17:47

whew ,that was fast for me, here is great comping of bruce whitcomb on guitar with steve grossman , steve was nodding at bruce for his comps , that sais a lot

26:03-29:46

and the first one is really fast with steve but bruce is using space, another great concept haha

you will have to wade through the other stuff

i brought this in i think about sonny sharrok, but if we are talking ups, this belongs over here

[christianm77]

Christian,
This is off the topic of speed, but I'd like your opinion on feeling the metronome on 2 and 4. Many people advocate this. Is it something worth spending time on? I'm asking because I have trouble doing it and would need to devote a lot of time to get the hang of it.

if you can’t do it, it’s good to practice it :-) when you can do it consistently, it’s good to develop other exercises. 2 and 4 can be a crutch.

you should be able to feel the metronome on any beat or upbeat of the bar really.... this takes.... months, maybe years. Be kind to yourself even as you are exacting and perfectionist, and look for gradual improvement.

(I should add that the metronome is NOT everything, some such as Jeff Berlin, Mike Longo and IIRC Chick Corea think that it can be harmful, but I’ve found it a vital tool of diagnosis.)

It’s really not off topic; The great challenge of uptempo playing is not, to me, chops, but being able perceive fine rhythmic detail and execute it without lag. That’s musicianship and technique obviously; but it is possible to have the raw speed and not be able to do this.

Putting the metronome on the 2 and 4 let alone the ands of the bar is much harder at 320 than at 180, obviously.

You should still tap your foot on 1 and 3 at these fast tempos though :-)

[christianm77]

Kurt on Rhythm changes at 340

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Kurt on Rhythm changes at 340

That was great! Kurt was very horn-like. I kept expecting him to break into the theme of the Flintstones, though.

[Reg]

Man... that was really rocky. I would have thought it might have been more in the Motown direction...

Joey is always the man... He and Christian both went to HS in Philly, that must have been fun...

[christianm77]

Man... that was really rocky. I would have thought it might have been more in the Motown direction...

Nope. Not with Kurt on guitar.