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Oh dear. Maybe take a listen?
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06-08-2017 06:55 PM
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I've listened. Seems to me it's just a tune that drifts (in a pleasingly harmonic way) from this to that. I'm not sure it means much more than that, to be honest.
Also, I've a feeling that it's an analyst's field day. Trying to work out the logic and all that. Don't think I'd bother. I might think again when I've put the tune against the chords myself, but at this stage no.
And I want to see the 'un-simplified' version.
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Well, now i think you're being difficult because you want to be right.
Check out how any of those first 4 chords could be any cluster of C# Aeolian (Emaj) over a bass note. This isn't as obvious as stacked 4ths, but if you can't hear those 4 chords clearly suggesting a mode--and the next two suggesting the same mode a step higher, listen to how free die plays on em. That'll make the idea a little clearer.
Context is important.
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Who, me? Right?
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I'll have to look later, which I will. Dentist tomorrow, no cause for alarm
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Originally Posted by ragman1
I can't seem to get any feedback on this- forget about the " light and dark Modulations" but go about 8 minutes in ...listen to the Modal Voicings constructed ( first on Piano later in Video on Guitar )
as very strongly indicative of a Mode because the
Half Steps (or inversion b9 ) are placed in the Chord as in the Particular Mode is is derived from .
It is Harmonically Modal - works quite well on some voicing some interesting Voicings later in Video.
Can you hear it or think it's Voodoo Theory ?
The Idea is that Modes are Modes because of the location of the half steps in the scale...
So you create the half steps IN the chord..along with Root and third to define the Mode...
Also I was impressed that he actually creates a Non Dominant Direct Modulation by just playing two different chords from 2 Different Modes- not Theory for Theory sake ( at least for me)..
Really impressive demonstration- I think the Video is poorly titled missing much more important points than' light and dark Modulations.'
He seems like a cool Theorist/ educator .Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-09-2017 at 02:14 PM.
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Can you show me any recordings, sound or video, of Mr. Beato actually playing jazz?
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Not sure how much Jazz Guitar he plays...
I don' t care if a Theorist can Play or not- I know how to play - what to play is a broader subject.
Also -Voicings like these would probably be of little interest to Beboppers ( I often phrase like one but over different Rhythms- and since I don't play Standards I am not a ' Jazz Guitarist ' either ).
But for someone who does some Solo Guitar ...Film Scoring or other types of 'Mood Music' Jazz or otherwise ( I can use them for certain things)...these are interesting to my ears and I never heard this Concept before...and apparently most from the Forum haven't either...
I am surprised there is another way to construct chords that I haven't heard about previously.
A lot of Classical Theorists don't have the chops and articulation and Rhythm to play Jazz or the R&B Fusion stuff I do now...I don't worry about that...as long as it ' works'.
So for harmonic Theory I don't care if the 'Guy ' can Play or not.
Plus ..for what I do..I BETTER be able to outplay most 'Instructors' Jazz or otherwise and Players, period or my Recording Career ( with me as a Soloist ) will be very short...lol.
" Can you back up these claims Robert ?"
Yes I will when ready. HahaLast edited by Robertkoa; 06-09-2017 at 10:35 AM.
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There's plenty of video footage of Beato demonstrating lovely lines, chords etc on the guitar.
He doesn't gig.
TBH there are many great jazz guitarists who studied the music in great depth and don't perform much if at all.
To pursue a performing career in music requires a different skillset and personal qualities to the one required to learn to actually play jazz guitar. To have a performing career in jazz guitar (long term at least) requires both.
Also, some people get sick of having no money and choose to apply their talents elsewhere, where the money is. Like Barney Kessel, for instance. One guy I know became a hip hop producer.
Others retire after a time, like Tal Farlow and Ed Bickert.Last edited by christianm77; 06-09-2017 at 09:24 AM.
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Thanks. I like it. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
The idea of modes as a half step location again gives reference early music modality for me
.. it's different from jazz but basically modes are understood in the same way to me.
I thought about another thing today...
Jazz modality is post-tonality.... we live in 12keys world... even modern guitars are much more like keyboards and the tendencies in teaching and technique are also about to cover 12 keys... which was mot the point in early days.... Transposition was not even considered often because another let just sounded differently.
We are in the world of equal temperance.
Early music modality was in different temperance. Transposition was almost impossible. Intervals were not equal.
I played in early music temperance, it gives fantastic richness both harmonically and mordally... pure modal line sounds much more logical moving and vivid than in modern temperance
Maybe partly it is the reason modern modality needs harmonic support and turns into modal harmony?
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Jeez, Jeff, there's lots of tunes on the Breaking Point album and a ton of transcriptions on YouTube. Look! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
freddie hubbard mirrors transcription - YouTube
Did you have to choose the one no one has done???!
Okay, I haven't had a lot of time but, at a glance, I agree the harmonies look ambiguous. Just before the start of C#-7 | Emaj7 | Amaj7 | Dmaj7 | there's that C#7/F#7 thing. To me, that points to B maj. So C#m (Dorian) - E (Lydian).
Then A - D. Presumably that's in A, because it's not A7, so it's in D. Except I'd play it Lydian too, so maybe E then A.
| Eb-7 | Ab-7 | Eb-7 | Ab-7 | is straightforward presumably.
Then | Bmaj Emaj | Emaj | Amaj Dmaj |Dmaj | - well, there you go, B maj again. And the rest.
Then | D- | G7 | F- | Bb7 | Ab- | Db7 | That's ascending in m3s, okay. Lots of stuff to do over that.
Then |Bb- F- | F- | Ab- Eb- | Eb- | Looks like F and Eb melodic to me. Or nearly.
Then back to C#7/F#7.
I haven't tried the tune over the changes yet. But, sorry, I am asking myself if this is all worth it. I'm not sure if it's really what we're talking about here either.
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''Just before the start of C#-7 | Emaj7 | Amaj7 | Dmaj7 | there's that C#7/F#7 thing. To me, that points to B maj..''
To me it's blues don chords here... it does not go to B maj
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What do you do it for? It's so neglegent and irrespectful to other participants. If you want to ignore it , do it. If not, take just a short piece of something and make a real insight. Do some respect Originally Posted by ragman1
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Well, I just picked Mirrors cuz I like it!
So the C#7/F#7 tag thing is definitely a trip to the blues, that's how I hear it too Jonah. The tritone moving a half step down.
I like the tune because you have the modal section, then the ii V's, then the blues...you got a little bit of everything right there in one tune. Can be treated modally or functionally, I suppose. Or both really. That's how I'd practice it if I were going to be playing this one.
SO...anyway, the point was we were talking modal voicings...
The piano isn't super easy to hear (Oh RVG, your Achilles heel) but I definitely hear a Bb and Cb on the Ab- chords. There's that half step from the scale...is that a "modal" chord?
I don't know the answer, I just like discussing this stuff.
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Sounds like you're having a bad day! Originally Posted by Jonah
You haven't read the posts properly. It wasn't my idea. I wanted to do Footprints but Jeff chose Mirrors. That's okay except it's a pretty obscure piece. I'm not denigrating his choice but it's not making it easy. I've analysed it as best I can. Nothing disrespectful anywhere. But I do think it's going to be quite a lot of effort and, as I said, I'm not entirely sure of its relevance to the thrust of the conversation which is supposed to be about modal voicings. Or something.
And I don't actually have to justify anything. In fact, mostly what I can see happening is disagreements over interpretations. And I really can't see much point in that.
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Oh, I knew that! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Maybe...So the C#7/F#7 tag thing is definitely a trip to the blues, that's how I hear it too Jonah. The tritone moving a half step down.
I like the tune because you have the modal section, then the ii V's, then the blues...you got a little bit of everything right there in one tune. Can be treated modally or functionally, I suppose. Or both really. That's how I'd practice it if I were going to be playing this one.
SO...anyway, the point was we were talking modal voicings...
The piano isn't super easy to hear (Oh RVG, your Achilles heel) but I definitely hear a Bb and Cb on the Ab- chords. There's that half step from the scale...is that a "modal" chord?
That makes two of us :-)I don't know the answer
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May be blues, but I said 'points' to B maj, not that it goes to it. It goes to C#m7, of which the Dorian is B maj. Originally Posted by Jonah
And, later on:
| Bmaj Emaj | Emaj | Amaj Dmaj |Dmaj |
the same E-A-D bit... preceded by B maj. That's a bit of a coincidence, don't you think?
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In any case, I think Joe Chambers' version is better. Maybe Freddie Hubbard's version is a bit wishy-washy?
Mirrors - YouTube
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Speaking of Footprints, it has some weird variants IIRC
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Exactly- and if you land on any of those tones or target them and play in Rhythm - you can play ANY scale or scale fragment for one Bar and it will sound cool- even if it's Random totally disrelated or chromatic. Originally Posted by p4chuss2
Try it.
Now on a Ballad or very slow Tempo or for longer phrases the 'scale ' or ' scale fragment ' or Arp or Arp fragment will obviously need to be Related to the Chord you are playing over..( the ' Correct' scale etc.).
But when you Target those Chord Shapes and their inversions when you are ready ...you can get away with all types of Phrases... because chord tones and extensions are always the Main Notes of any Melody or Improv-NOT the scales .
Scales are not really the Basis for Improvising they are bulk material that gives you ways to approach and land on chord tones and extensions at the Main Points of Phrases IMO .
And those chord shapes are a great way to start and end Phrases.Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-11-2017 at 02:37 PM.
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Many thanks Robert. I appreciate your answer. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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As long as it isn't just Ab7-G7 on that turnaround! Originally Posted by christianm77
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It seemed simple enough on that one I posted, just D7/Db7. Why don't you say what t/a chords are acceptable to you and that'll be fine with me. I don't care. The idea was to take an actual tune and apply scales/modes to the chords to get the effect. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Voicings probably aren't relevant unless you're playing advanced solo guitar/chord melody, which I'm sure p4chuss2 isn't yet.
Maybe it doesn't matter now. I suspect p4chuss2 has had enough after 5 pages!
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F#m7b5 - B7+11 - E7+9 - A7+
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That's it - I always forget that one... Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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That's it. As the second chord in the chain, An F7 with some alterations is also acceptable to my ears. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Has to be 4 chords, max tension, getting to the A7 altered sound.
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