How do you visualise / see the scales or arpeggios during progressions?

**ragman1** · 06-08-2017, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Who said always?

Henry: It means mainly, not always

Me: Certainly not always

I was agreeing with him.

It's all just shorthand in human communication, semantics

Yes, I know. If someone plays a sus chord and says it's a modal chord, sure, I know what they mean. But I was actually talking to Robertkoa about it. By the sound of it he is quite assured there are real 'modal' chords. Aside from casual speaking, which we understand, I didn't agree, and I still don't.

We might say that Beato in his vid was playing modal chords. What he actually did was simply take the notes from a particular mode, banged them out all together, and made a weird sound! I suppose that's a chord :-)

**henryrobinett** · 06-08-2017, 02:12 AM

I see. Ok. Semantics again maybe? I've written and played songs/charts where the chart says Eb mixolydian 16 bars, Ab Aeolian 4 bars, C Dorian 8 bars, F Lydian #5 etc. no "chords" so to speak. And don't play Eb7, Abm7, Cmin, etc. That wouldn't be the right sounds at all.

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**ragman1** · 06-08-2017, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

^^^ yes. But rag, it was you who said there was no such thing as a modal chord, wasn't it?

It was me. I said what made modal music was not the notes but the notes against a particular chord. And the piece would have to be structured to bring that sound out.

If you sing 'Happy Birthday' in C there's a wonderful natural B over the F chord - 'Happy birthday, dear HEN-ry' - what could be more Lydian than that?

But we wouldn't call that modal music or 'Happy Birthday' a modal tune!

I'm not talking about diatonic fourths. I'm referring to the 4ths that have been traditionally used in jazz since the early 60s. That the sus chord. 4ths. With 1-4-5, or 1-4-b7.

I know, stacked fourths. Quartal stuff.

**henryrobinett** · 06-08-2017, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

It was me. I said what made modal music was not the notes but the notes against a particular chord. And the piece would have to be structured to bring that sound out.

.

Yeah. That's just it. I think EXACTLY the opposite. "Modal music" doesn't really have chords, per se. A mode is just a root with a row of notes above it. That's why thinking of modes as being a row of notes to play against chords is COMPLETELY backwards. But it's bastardized as such to help teach remedial improv.

But "modal chords" would be based on the root and a structure of notes, or scale, above it. Could be a cluster, organization of 4ths, 3rds (not as satisfying because it implies actual chords).

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**ragman1** · 06-08-2017, 02:24 AM

I'm going to be controversial :-)

You could go into the kitchen and mix cheese with sugar and raspberries with chilli sauce and call it modern food. Well, I say *@$%!

**henryrobinett** · 06-08-2017, 02:25 AM

Huh?

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**henryrobinett** · 06-08-2017, 02:27 AM

I mean the thing is modal is anything BUT modern. It's not modern food at all. But you know that.

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**henryrobinett** · 06-08-2017, 02:30 AM

But that's not what I heard you say. You said there was no such thing as modal chords. I'm referring specifically here to modal MUSIC.

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**ragman1** · 06-08-2017, 02:31 AM

Time for a break :-)

**henryrobinett** · 06-08-2017, 02:31 AM

Fair enough.

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**Jehu** · 06-08-2017, 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Visualizing the Fretboard notes | Henry Robinett Guitar Lessons

I did this real quick. I hope it's germane still. I may have gotten off topic, I don't know. I always record my live lessons, so I was set it for it.

Just wanted to interrupt the silliness for a moment to say: Man, Henry, awesome post. I guess this is the same stuff you've been saying around here for years, but hearing you talk about it and more importantly, PLAY (about) it really drives the point home. I hope to hear more of these!

(And you won't hear me complaining about your effect-laden sound! Makes me want to run out and get a delay pedal.)

**ragman1** · 06-08-2017, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

But that's not what I heard you say. You said there was no such thing as modal chords. I'm referring specifically here to modal MUSIC.

As far as I can see, modal music is just floaty music. It has an unresolved flavour, at least unresolved in the way we're used to.

If we play C major over Dm - G7 - C it works, it resolves nicely and we feel comfortable with that. But if we take a Dm chord all by itself and play C major over it for 10 minutes that would be modal. It's floaty, hypnotic, and we like all that.

I really think it's that simple.

**Jonah** · 06-08-2017, 06:37 AM

But if we take a Dm chord all by itself and play C major over it for 10 minutes that would be modal.

It's because time is one of the ways to establish new relations... first we expect Dm to go further (say to G7) but after a while an ear gets comfortable with D as a tonic in D dorian...

But let's think that we ae already in a musical culture where modality is quite common... we do not need 10 minutes to have it confortably done.

So 'unresolved flavour' you talk about is there for an ear trained for functional tonality... for modal heaing it is quite resolved.

Though partly I agree that the modality is better for transfering meditaive feeling... it's by far not the only thing it works... modal pieces can be short informative and very concentrated

**henryrobinett** · 06-08-2017, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Jehu

Just wanted to interrupt the silliness for a moment to say: Man, Henry, awesome post. I guess this is the same stuff you've been saying around here for years, but hearing you talk about it and more importantly, PLAY (about) it really drives the point home. I hope to hear more of these!

(And you won't hear me complaining about your effect-laden sound! Makes me want to run out and get a delay pedal.)

Thank you tons! I really appreciate your kind words. Now I'm thinking of some more i can do.

I know a lot of folks like videos. I set up a nice video camera a few years ago, but the way I like things to sound it became too time consuming. I record it in my DAW then have to sync and render. Audio only is quick for me.

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**henryrobinett** · 06-08-2017, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

As far as I can see, modal music is just floaty music. It has an unresolved flavour, at least unresolved in the way we're used to.

If we play C major over Dm - G7 - C it works, it resolves nicely and we feel comfortable with that. But if we take a Dm chord all by itself and play C major over it for 10 minutes that would be modal. It's floaty, hypnotic, and we like all that.

I really think it's that simple.

Lol. Well sure I guess it's that simple. But when I think of modal jazz, the model for me is Coltrane and McCoy. And everyone else who came after applying that model. Not so much the guitar players. So for me it's not as simple as all that.

It's all about the music, not intellectualizing about it or talking about it. But application. So floaty, hypnotic- unresolved. Yeah. But what does it sound like? Transition by Coltrane? Could. Could. Hard to get hypnotized by that. Too powerful.

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**henryrobinett** · 06-08-2017, 08:21 AM

Btw playing a C scale over Dm-G7-C would still be a modal APPROACH to playing over chords. It doesn't necessarily resolve at all. It's all general and vague, and modal, if that's all you're doing. Even if you take it a step further and play D Dorian, G mixolydian and C Ionian. It's still a modal approach.

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**bako** · 06-08-2017, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

As far as I can see, modal music is just floaty music. It has an unresolved flavour, at least unresolved in the way we're used to.

If we play C major over Dm - G7 - C it works, it resolves nicely and we feel comfortable with that. But if we take a Dm chord all by itself and play C major over it for 10 minutes that would be modal. It's floaty, hypnotic, and we like all that.

I really think it's that simple.

Not so floaty and not single scale. I think this is more the norm than what you describe above.

Comes with onscreen transcription.

**henryrobinett** · 06-08-2017, 08:54 AM

Great example bako! That's what I'm talking about. Notice the drone in the left hand every 8 bars or so. And the sus chords. Not so stationary. But sometimes he hangs in the single chord. His lines don't stick rigidly to the mode. Chromatic.

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**mr. beaumont** · 06-08-2017, 09:03 AM

I think a big problem is when people try to force "modal jazz" into the classical definition of "modal music." Modal jazz is very much it's own thing.

The tension and release Tyner creates here over a "static" chord is just brilliant...anything but static!

And I just sat down and played some of those left hand chords...chromatic movement...much easier on guitar than piano!

**ragman1** · 06-08-2017, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

It's because time is one of the ways to establish new relations... first we expect Dm to go further (say to G7) but after a while an ear gets comfortable with D as a tonic in D dorian...But let's think that we ae already in a musical culture where modality is quite common... we do not need 10 minutes to have it confortably done.

Absolutely, actually very quickly once you know what's going on.

So 'unresolved flavour' you talk about is there for an ear trained for functional tonality... for modal hearing it is quite resolved

Oh no, it is unresolved, it's a matter of degree. I spent about 10 minutes last night playing every possible scale/mode over a Dm. However standard the scale (D harmonic minor, F major) it still sounds strange simply because it's not going anywhere.

(quick edit) Have you tried F# harmonic over Dm? Quite nice :-)

It's only when you change modes that the differences become apparent. It's still not going anywhere, it's just more interesting. And I think that's the point. It's only sounds in context that create the feeling of modality.

Though partly I agree that the modality is better for transfering meditaive feeling... it's by far not the only thing it works... modal pieces can be short informative and very concentrated

Sure, except one thing. I'm not going to use the word meditative. I'm no materialist but floaty, dreamy, hypnotic, is not meditative. Meditative means in serious thought, not zoning out on something repetitive. Too hippy, man :-)

**ragman1** · 06-08-2017, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

not intellectualizing about it or talking about it. But application.

Absolutely, my position too. Anybody can spin words and theories.

So floaty, hypnotic- unresolved. Yeah. But what does it sound like? Transition by Coltrane? Could. Could. Hard to get hypnotized by that. Too powerful.

Oh, I know. I like this stuff too! Naima, Iris, gorgeous stuff. But it is floaty. I insist on that!

**ragman1** · 06-08-2017, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Btw playing a C scale over Dm-G7-C would still be a modal APPROACH to playing over chords. It doesn't necessarily resolve at all. It's all general and vague, and modal, if that's all you're doing. Even if you take it a step further and play D Dorian, G mixolydian and C Ionian. It's still a modal approach.

Of course it is. I assumed we understood that, that the usual way of playing in one key, the ii-V-I etc, was also 'modal' if you like. But it's not really what we're talking about here.

**ragman1** · 06-08-2017, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by bako

Not so floaty and not single scale. I think this is more the norm than what you describe above.

Obviously. Modal music is not just one chord or one mode. We know that!

**ragman1** · 06-08-2017, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think a big problem is when people try to force "modal jazz" into the classical definition of "modal music." Modal jazz is very much it's own thing.

Quite so.

This all started with me saying there weren't really any modal chords, just chords. It's their usage which can be modal, or create the modal sound. And we seem to have gone off a bit on something :-)

I'm not really disagreeing with much of it either. That McCoy Tyner vid was great.