How do you visualise / see the scales or arpeggios during progressions?

[p4chuss2]

Hi,

I am having some difficulties in "seeing" the scales / arpeggios while playing over progressions / changes. I know the scales, I know the arpeggios... but as a "stand alone".

1. How do you "think", or what helps you to "see" the shapes of the scales or arpeggios on the fretboard?
2. Do you search for the root in the nearest position and from there you "look" for the third and so on?

Like for example, in a chord progression like: Dm7 G7 Cmaj7

Do you look for the D in one position and try to see the D minor scale, and then look for the G and then look for the 3rd. of the G dom scale, and then look for the nearest C note and then try to find the 3rd (in case you want to start with the third)?

Or how to you really "learn" it? Do you memorise the 3rd. of the G and look for it, or do you look for the G and then look for the third?

Regards,
p4chuss

[mr. beaumont]

I get hippy dippy, when I talk about this, so bear with me.

I see chords/scales as "pools" of notes. When I know stuff well (from repetition, repetition, and practical use) the fretboard kind of "lights up." Home base is always chord shapes, the same drop 2 and 3's everybody knows. I don't see scales at all, everything I see is a pool of notes, and I can grab a group and have a chord, or play "connect the dots" and noodle.

Now, ideally, noodling is not the goal, but I think a good amount of finger wiggling and close listening is necessary for getting sounds in your ears.

[KirkP]

This reminds me of a year when I was playing speed chess at lunch every day. After a while I began to have the sensation of instantly seeing the squares were key pieces could be in one or two moves as if the squares lit up.
If I focus intently on practicing chord inversions or locating chord tones for a few days, I begin to have a similar perception of the guitar neck. The "pool of notes" seems about right. When everything is clicking I "see" them without looking at the fretboard and can hear them before striking the note. Unfortunately, I'm not there now as I've been slacking off.

[docbop]

I found when I started looking at smaller pieces the more saw. I got away from the big fingering patterns most learn and worship and started think in octaves and tetrachords. I found by viewing in smaller pieces it opened up the neck more from any point or finger. Then arpeggios I think more about the intervals that make up an a chord and knowing interval shapes again easy to build arp anywhere.

This is something that started after not playing music for a couple years and got back and was playing bass. The teacher I had she started me on playing scales on one string, later two, and by time I got to three I really understood how to create fingerings as needed. I've transfer that approach to guitar.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I play out of chords and mostly, see everything that way. Maybe you're not supposed to. I'm not a particularly good student I suppose. I have a kind of "reference chord" for each inversion, and I would always work on playing melodically starting "from" and ending on different scale degrees in that position. Otherwise I'd probably be starting from the same place each time or the same scale degree/string etc.

At this point in my life, I'd tend to think that "seeing the whole scale" could be more of an obstacle than a solution for beginners, if that makes sense? It's the definite END goal I guess. Probably one of the easiest ways to get there though, is to look at smaller bits.

For a G major7 chord in a specific position, I'd work on short lines/cells which target G or F# or D or B etc. etc. Notes really need to be GOING somewhere, and that's probably going to be a chord tone. Good basic vocabulary, especially in the beginning, is probably going to start on a chord tone and end on one. I like the idea of references . So, I would tend to think of certain licks/patterns/vocabulary as being something which helps me think of a specific position/chord voicing etc. Otherwise, it's just a grid, and that's not necessarily music.

I don't really know of any other way to learn to start from different places or end in different places in different positions/inversions without simply WORKING on it that way. I don't think the thing of finding the root first and thinking your way through is ever going to be fast enough.

A separate issue I guess....but the "finding the root" thing is problematic and is what makes the guitar really frustrating for many. For most guitarists, in order to find the root , they first reference something separate, like a note on the six string, Then use that position to find the roots mentally, then as a separate step, mentally find other chord tones. That's just crazy, and you don't even realize how crazy it is until you learn a different way.

Learn to see each position as an INVERSION of whatever chord, arpeggio, or scale you're playing, and stop looking for the root FIRST. We don't do this on OTHER instruments like piano or horn. We don't find the root 1st, to play inversions, we just learn the inversions. I don't know why guitarists are taught to do this, but we are and it's understandably confounding. Eventually, you're going to know where the root is (and you should), but there's no reason you have to start there.

[p4chuss2]

Many thanks to all of you for your kind answers.

So, I guess you all are saying that, instead of visualising scales, and arpeggios, just visualise the shapes for the chords in that particular position, right?

Regards,
p4

[mr. beaumont]

I think that's a very good starting point as a reference. Don't be afraid to expand it, obviously.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I think that's a very good starting point as a reference. Don't be afraid to expand it, obviously.

Obviously, but starting "somewhere" is is simpler than starting "everywhere". :-)

[mr. beaumont]

Obviously, but starting "somewhere" is is simpler than starting "everywhere". :-)

Exactly.

You know me, I'm Mr. No Fun, I'm all about limits for beginners/people starting out with jazz.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Exactly.

You know me, I'm Mr. No Fun, I'm all about limits for beginners/people starting out with jazz.

Yeah. It's a paradox, especially for guitarists. It's really helpful to get some basic fingerings for things down , but then it really needs to be sort of back to playing a lot less in the discovering "what to play", using that structured framework. That's where a lot of the scales or no scales debates come in. Probably both sides are right, but they're kind of talking about different things.

[ragman1]

As the others have said, many players are shape-based. The shape gives you a kind of base from which to find the notes you need. It has an advantage over scale patterns in that playing over scales can lead to noodling.

This is a very simple example but here's a Dm or Dm7:



From there, if you're in C, the notes appear:



Same thing with G or G7:



From there:



And so on. What really matters is that you know how those notes are going to sound - like the sound of the E or B over the Dm, or the E, F and A over the G7.

Soon your eye and ear will see larger patterns, like realising the Dm notes and the G7 notes are all part of each other.

When that gets easy, which won't take long, then you can try the notes in between, like the C# between the C and D for Dm, or the Ab, Eb and Db over the G7.

This isn't to say you can discard all the scales, though. Both are necessary and useful. It's all a matter of practice and familiarity, it comes in time. And it will come.

[p4chuss2]

As the others have said, many players are shape-based. The shape gives you a kind of base from which to find the notes you need. It has an advantage over scale patterns in that playing over scales can lead to noodling.

This is a very simple example but here's a Dm or Dm7:



From there, if you're in C, the notes appear:



Same thing with G or G7:



From there:



And so on. What really matters is that you know how those notes are going to sound - like the sound of the E or B over the Dm, or the E, F and A over the G7.

Soon your eye and ear will see larger patterns, like realising the Dm notes and the G7 notes are all part of each other.

When that gets easy, which won't take long, then you can try the notes in between, like the C# between the C and D for Dm, or the Ab, Eb and Db over the G7.

This isn't to say you can discard all the scales, though. Both are necessary and useful. It's all a matter of practice and familiarity, it comes in time. And it will come.

Many thanks !


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[ragman1]

Hope it helps.

There's perhaps a bit of an exception to this and that's the blues scale. The pentatonic pattern doesn't really coincide with the chord shapes that much, especially if you're using the same one over three or more chords. There, a bit of noodling might be all right.

So that's worth knowing :-)

[bobby d]

Hope it helps.

There's perhaps a bit of an exception to this and that's the blues scale. The pentatonic pattern doesn't really coincide with the chord shapes that much, especially if you're using the same one over three or more chords. There, a bit of noodling might be all right.

So that's worth knowing :-)

Are you kidding? Barre your 1st finger across the 5th fret and play the A minor pentatonic scale.

[pauln]

Doesn't anyone play by ear anymore? ...grasping and producing music by hearing it and singing with your hands?

Using geometric shapes and patterns, using verbal descriptions of chord roots and tones, scale tonics and degrees, using those to make mechanical modifications (thinking about what you are NOT going to play in order to produce something you ARE going to play), and all the rest of the "non-listening" methodologies just seem like slow motion proxies for what one really wants to do instantly - express the music one hears in one's head directly out of the instrument.

Non-listening approaches develop "muscle memory" that may be used to execute the spatial verbal logical commands resulting from the theory computations of internal dialog... but playing by ear comes from developing "muscle melody" whereby the hands have learned the sound of what they play in such a way that if you simply will them to make the sound in your head, they do so, no intermediate figuring out is needed.

That said, self reporting of how and what one thinks when doing something are extremely suspect of being totally incorrect. For anything so complicated as playing jazz guitar, the best description may be "it feels like magic".

[mr. beaumont]

Doesn't anyone play by ear anymore? ...grasping and producing music by hearing it and singing with your hands?

Using geometric shapes and patterns, using verbal descriptions of chord roots and tones, scale tonics and degrees, using those to make mechanical modifications (thinking about what you are NOT going to play in order to produce something you ARE going to play), and all the rest of the "non-listening" methodologies just seem like slow motion proxies for what one really wants to do instantly - express the music one hears in one's head directly out of the instrument.

Non-listening approaches develop "muscle memory" that may be used to execute the spatial verbal logical commands resulting from the theory computations of internal dialog... but playing by ear comes from developing "muscle melody" whereby the hands have learned the sound of what they play in such a way that if you simply will them to make the sound in your head, they do so, no intermediate figuring out is needed.

That said, self reporting of how and what one thinks when doing something are extremely suspect of being totally incorrect. For anything so complicated as playing jazz guitar, the best description may be "it feels like magic".

Sure, why do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

We're talking to a beginner--he needs to get the sounds IN his ears before he can rely on them.

[ragman1]

Are you kidding? Barre your 1st finger across the 5th fret and play the A minor pentatonic scale.

There's a little more to it than that.

[pingu]

Many thanks to all of you for your kind answers.

So, I guess you all are saying that, instead of visualising scales, and arpeggios, just visualise the shapes for the chords in that particular position, right?

Regards,
p4

Yes the CAGED shapes work for me visually
and playing wise
(and connect them together into one big
shape eventually ....)

I'm not dissing visualising via a linear method
Keyboard or the Stave etc ... But Caged works
for me ...

Do whatever works best !

[vintagelove]

Learned the 7 position scale system. Turns the neck into a giant grid. It's ALL in there. 15 years later and I'm still finding connections. It's truly a lifelong pursuit if you want to keep growing.

[p4chuss2]

Well it gets easier in a single key tune. But in the moment you play C6 E7 A7 (beginning of All Of Me) you cannot play over the C scale. You have to look for the E7 and then A7. And that's where I am having difficulties in visualizing the next scale grid. Now I do try to find the nearest root in my head and try to see that grid and then try to find the nearest note (the third preferably). But that is too slow, tiring and consuming and is sounding very mechanical.

By memorizing the shapes as others mentioned here you still have to see those shapes and "play" around them. And by memorizing the "dots" in the first 3 string sets you still have to visualize them.

So I guess there is no shortcut.

But many thanks for the answer.


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[docbop]

Well it gets easier in a single key tune. But in the moment you play C6 E7 A7 (beginning of All Of Me) you cannot play over the C scale. You have to look for the E7 and then A7. And that's where I am having difficulties in visualizing the next scale grid. Now I do try to find the nearest root in my head and try to see that grid and then try to find the nearest note (the third preferably). But that is too slow, tiring and consuming and is sounding very mechanical.

By memorizing the shapes as others mentioned here you still have to see those shapes and "play" around them. And by memorizing the "dots" in the first 3 string sets you still have to visualize them.

So I guess there is no shortcut.

But many thanks for the answer.


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No shortcuts it all about logging lots of time in the woodshed and finding what works for you and even that will change over time. Visualizing the fretboard helps something Howard Robert had us doing at early GIT. Pat Metheny talks about using visualization in his book when his parent took his guitar away because his grades sucked. Pat said he probably spend even more time mentally practicing when he could touch his guitar for a few months. Also writing lines away from the guitar helps, then going back and playing them. When the guitar isn't in your hand you really see more and rely less on familiar patterns. Last I found practicing sight reading helped alot learning the neck, you can be looking at the neck and music at same time so you develop that second sense of where you are.

[pauln]

Well it gets easier in a single key tune. But in the moment you play C6 E7 A7 (beginning of All Of Me) you cannot play over the C scale. You have to look for the E7 and then A7. And that's where I am having difficulties in visualizing the next scale grid. Now I do try to find the nearest root in my head and try to see that grid and then try to find the nearest note (the third preferably). But that is too slow, tiring and consuming and is sounding very mechanical.

By memorizing the shapes as others mentioned here you still have to see those shapes and "play" around them. And by memorizing the "dots" in the first 3 string sets you still have to visualize them.

So I guess there is no shortcut.

But many thanks for the answer.


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You sound like someone wearing a blindfold trying to paint a portrait. He feels the face, he feels the canvass and estimates locations by the distance from the edges, then feels the paints ordered by color, then applies the paints to the canvass... finding this complex and ineffective, he says "I guess there is no short cut". Painting is a visual art, but he isn't even using his eyes.

What role does listening to the music play in your understanding of music? You are describing looking for the visual grid patterns of notes that comprise the scales of chord names, so that you can locate within the visual patterns the roots and scale degrees of those scales.

Yes, that is slow, tiring, consuming, and mechanical... but the fundamental problem is that it is not aural, not connected to the phenomenology of hearing the music, not even using one's ears.

[p4chuss2]

Hi Pauln

I appreciate your answer. You dedicated your time to that so many thanks.

Spoiler: here comes a "but"...

But don't tell me that you started just like that playing great jazz lines and solos just by ear without knowing the scales and arpeggios. I only know a few musicians that are able to do that or started like that. Like Louis Armstrong, Django Reinhardt ... I would bet you didn't started just like that.

I do listen a lot of jazz since lot of time ago, hear nice solos in my head when singing in the shower, and even play nice lines when I am in "free style mode" just following my heart and head. But when it comes to follow a tune things change because you have to follow those rules.

Are you able to "know" the chord where a tune is playing just by ear? (Btw. This is another thread I will open !)

I guess the same as I started with blues, I followed some rules and now I just hear it. But I just could not recommend a newbie in the blues just to follow his heart and ear.

Regards
P4


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[Jonah]

Do you look for the D in one position and try to see the D minor scale, and then look for the G and then look for the 3rd. of the G dom scale, and then look for the nearest C note and then try to find the 3rd (in case you want to start with the third)?

try to think the whole thing... dm7-g7-c...

You play the melody... the melody does not know that you look for a scale for every chord.... melody moves through the changes...
It goes from one point to another...

It's like speech... you do not go from word to word.. you think in sentences... or even in longer periods...

The important thig is the one that makes a phrase meaningfull...

If you have Dm-7 for 8 bars... then probably it makes sence to concentrate on some scale to see what resources it gives to you... intervalic relations, accents...

But if you have all three chords in 1-2 bar... think of it as single unit.. it's a cadential turnaround...

So you do not look for scales or arprggios... you look for the beggining - climax and conclusion of a melodic phrase...

Let's look at this line below..



Theoretically you can split it into arps and scale runs for every chord... which probably could make some semce for practicing
but would it make it easier to play musically?
I do not think so....

Let's try to connect chords instead of dissecting the turnaound...
hear the first notes of the melody that falls on every chord... a (dm7) b (g7) c (cmaj)... it's an ascending line.... try to play it like a whole note for every bar - A- B- C..
Let's see what's in between.... or I would star from how he approaches these notes



How he moves off these notes, hoiw he starts for the next one...

a on d-minor falls on weak beat... here he just plays an ascending arp... in a way you could think this arp here as an embelishment outlining the harmony just of one sound it can... a-d-f but after f we have descending line (f) - e-d-c.. s
o f from the dminor arp is also f from the descending line.. this how things get connected!
The arp is no more just a harmonic arp, now it is a part of a melodic line..

Let's move one...

You want to land on chord tone on G7... B would be great and the line goes this direction... but if we play even 8ths we cannot come to B on beat.. so we jump over it to a and then back to

so B is approached by nice diatonic appogiatura c-a-b
(Note that c-a also outlines Dm7 harmony too)...

So B is a conclusion and resolution of this ascending line but we see that next goes and ascending arp G7b9 b-d-f-ab... so b again connects two short motivic lines being an end of one and the beginning of the second...

And again let's look an arp... does this ab here only to add an altered colour to dominant chord? Not only... it gives stronger reslution to following g and descending diatonic line g-f-e-d which litterally falls down to concluding C on the 1st beat...

So this is what we have on masro level - only three ascending notes a-b-c... contrasted by micro level movements - ascending arps and descending lines... interacting between each other.. working both as melody and outlining harmony... adding chromatic altered sound to the melody and increasing harmonic tension and swing feel...
All the elements are multifunctional...

This is only one why to see?hear.. there could others...

But the important thing is that it's all connected all the way thruogh it is a-b-c...





Also I would advice you to think key... it's C major... it's functional Dm7-G7-Cmaj are S-D-T functions... i(or you can treat Dm7-G7 as Dominant function too)... hearing functions is important tool in creating melody too (in functional music of course)...
You hear it like zones or areas of tension or attractiion..
It's like a universe... first you're in one planet attraction but as you move one and overcome it you get into anothe planet attraction.. it all works together.. these forces and they make a system... we should hear it...
(I think it's not occasional that modern universe setup appeared approximately at the same time with functional tonality establishment in music)


PS

This scale thing you try.. it seems it will never go..

And what's intresting that this theory became integrated so much most players take it for granted: you have chords, you have scales.. like it's something very natural. Though to me it's the most unnatural thing one could imagine...

I am not against chord/scales.. but I think ift should be taught to used by advanced players...
when it is used as a beginning basic tool to me it seems to ruin musical thing in playing

[ragman1]

p4chuss2 -

(edit - I hadn't seen the post above before I posted this, but here's this one anyway)

Quite right. You stick up for yourself!

Shapes are good because, like I said, they can give you a 'base' from which to work. In fact it's quite easy. But... you also need to know about tonal centres. 'All Of Me' is a very, very good example of this.

Look at the chords (I'm making it very simple):

C - E7 - A7 - D7 - Dm/G7 - C

This is the way I see it straight away. The C- E7 is in C. The E7 is what they call a secondary dominant. If you play the shape it'll take care of itself. The G# is good to hear.

The A7 - Dm is a 5-1 in Dm. That means you're going to play harmonic minor sounds over the A7 using Bb and C#. Play the shape but pop in those sounds too.

The E7 - Am is a 5-1 in Am so the same applies, b9 sounds over the E7 (F and G#).

But the Am is also the 2 of D7... so I'd start to play it as though it were in G to bring out the F# sound.

Then with Dm7/G7 you're back in C again. And I'd almost certainly put in a nice altered sound (Ab, Eb, Db) to get back to the C chord.

CM7 - 8th fret
E7 - 7th fret

A7(b9) - 5th fret
Dm - 5th fret

E7(b9) - 5th fret
Am - 5th fret

D7 - 3rd/5th fret

Dm7 - 5th fret
G7(alt) - 3rd fret

CM7 - 3rd fret

Like this, slow then faster:

There's really no short cut or easy way. You've just gotta do it till it gets natural :-)