Official Barry Harris Thread

[pamosmusic]

I realize this is a Barry Harris oriented thread but is his use of diminished chords different than the usual jazz harmony approach?

Yes, it is. At least based on your posts here.

It's more like the way an arranger will use them for internal motion in a sax soli or something like that.

(also just not sure where those Autumn Leaves changes of yours are coming from)

[Mick-7]

(also just not sure where those Autumn Leaves changes of yours are coming from)

Just the usual IIm7 (but b5) | V7 (but b9) | Dm7 (iiim7 for I^7) and G7, its related V7 chord - but I was riffing off the changes that Allan posted.

[supersoul]

This is a bit of confusion for me, but is "major 6th diminished scale" a bit of a misnomer? It's not really a scale, but the combination of two chords. It seems to work by going back and forth between the two, with the diminished portion being there to go away from and back to the major 6th portion.

[joe2758]

This is a bit of confusion for me, but is "major 6th diminished scale" a bit of a misnomer? It's not really a scale, but the combination of two chords. It seems to work by going back and forth between the two, with the diminished portion being there to go away from and back to the major 6th portion.

it's referred to as a "scale of chords"

[Christian Miller]

This is a bit of confusion for me, but is "major 6th diminished scale" a bit of a misnomer? It's not really a scale, but the combination of two chords. It seems to work by going back and forth between the two, with the diminished portion being there to go away from and back to the major 6th portion.

I mean I’m pretty thick right? But I think saying the major6-diminished scale means the scale you get when you combine the major6 with the diminished. I mean it makes more sense than half the scale names out there.


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[supersoul]

I mean I’m pretty thick right? But I think saying the major6-diminished scale means the scale you get when you combine the major6 with the diminished. I mean it makes more sense than half the scale names out there.


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My question had to do with how it's used. Is it ever used as a scale?

I get that it has 8 notes and the consonant notes will always fall on the beat, but that is only a specific case. Most of the ways I've seen it used is to go back and forth between the major 6th and the diminished.

"scale from chords" makes sense, I guess. I didn't know that the "from chords" part was being left off. Hence the question about "scale" being a misnomer.

[pamosmusic]

My question had to do with how it's used. Is it ever used as a scale?

I get that it has 8 notes and the consonant notes will always fall on the beat, but that is only a specific case. Most of the ways I've seen it used is to go back and forth between the major 6th and the diminished.

"scale from chords" makes sense, I guess. I didn't know that the "from chords" part was being left off. Hence the question about "scale" being a misnomer.

Yeah for sure. Used a lot in single note stuff. But also in particular super useful for getting diads and stuff that have a really nice feeling of harmonic motion that is sometimes hard to come by in diads from seven note scales

[pamosmusic]

I hesitate to point you to a thread with “mofo” in the title … but maybe something will pop up over here

BH 6th/dim for single note mofos

[supersoul]

Yeah for sure. Used a lot in single note stuff. But also in particular super useful for getting diads and stuff that have a really nice feeling of harmonic motion that is sometimes hard to come by in diads from seven note scales

can you give an example?

I'm thinking something like:

E G
F G#
F A
or

E G
E G#
F A
or

G B
G# B
A C

or

G B
G# C
A C

like that sort of thing?

[pamosmusic]

can you give an example?

I'm thinking something like:

E G
F G#
F A

The first one but the last diad would be G to A. In the terms of the scale it’s a “third” as in it skips a note, but it’s obviously a major second in absolute terms

[Christian Miller]

My question had to do with how it's used. Is it ever used as a scale?

I get that it has 8 notes and the consonant notes will always fall on the beat, but that is only a specific case. Most of the ways I've seen it used is to go back and forth between the major 6th and the diminished.

"scale from chords" makes sense, I guess. I didn't know that the "from chords" part was being left off. Hence the question about "scale" being a misnomer.

You can do other things

Moving between 6th and diminished like that is taught as block chords or mechanical voicings throughout jazz education. It’s a 1940s technique for harmonising saxophone sections.

What Barry Harris realised is that if you take the scale that is constructed from this technique “the scale of chords” you can actually use it in much less parallel and more interesting and free ways. So you can do things like intervallic stuff, contrary motion, staggered and oblique motion, you name it, and because of the characteristics of this scale it will always behave in a very balanced harmonic way.

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[pcjazz]

… the characteristics of this scale …

As Christian knows, Barry taught (and used) four different scales, each constructed by taking the four notes of a chord (major sixth, minor sixth, dominant and dominant flat five respectively) and the four notes of the related diminished seventh chord. He maintained that these four scales of chords were intended for accompaniment although he taught the m6dim scale as the scale for soloing over tonic minor chords as well as comping. For soloing Barry emphasized the common 7-tone major and dominant scales chromatically enriched with his extra note rules which, if you think of them as generating scales, produce different note collections than the four comping scales of chords. In the soloing context Barry also taught the diminished and whole-tone scales as well as his versions of the chromatic scales in which semitone intervals are replaced by minor third leaps.

I studied with Howard Rees and intermittently with Barry (on his visits to Toronto) on and off for nearly twenty years, and what I set out above barely scratches the surface of his approach. Since Barry’s death the internet has sprouted dozens of “experts”, some more authentic than others, but I suggest that anyone serious about understanding his approach begin with the two workshop books/DVDs that Howard produced in association with Barry, as well as the late Alan Kingstone’s book on Barry’s harmony for guitar. If you are in New York or able to get there, the Barry Harris Institute of Jazz offers workshops at various venues.

[Christian Miller]

I’d add to that according to Howard Barry didn’t actually start teaching the 6-dim stuff until the 80s.

I see people jumping off the deep end with this Thomas Echols stuff … Cool, more of a solo guitar vibe I guess. But it’s also quite a way upstream I would say… and the 6th-dim scale stuff is actually not what I think of as the core of what I learned with Barry FWIW.

The heart of the how to play linear bebop stuff - the stuff that he worked on all those years ago in Detroit and so on - is based on the common major and minor scales in idiomatic patterns and enriched with chromatic notes as pcjazz says.

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[pamosmusic]

I’d add to that according to Howard Barry didn’t actually start teaching the 6-dim stuff until the 80s.

I see people jumping off the deep end with this Thomas Echols stuff … Cool, more of a solo guitar vibe I guess. But it’s also quite a way upstream I would say… and the 6th-dim scale stuff is actually not what I think of as the core of what I learned with Barry FWIW.

The heart of the how to play linear bebop stuff - the stuff that he worked on all those years ago in Detroit and so on - is based on the common major and minor scales in idiomatic patterns and enriched with chromatic notes as pcjazz says.

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I think Echols 6 dim stuff is super super cool, but didn’t really get hooked by it. I think his single note approach was kind of cooler. It’s very analytical but he really leans into the modular aspect of the material, which is cool.

I love watching Barry just vibe out awesome lines while he’s leaning in the crook of a piano. But when it’s some guy on YouTube doing it, I’m generally less impressed. So it’s nice to have a framework for snapping the pieces together on your own.

It’s very heady though. He definitely writes like a PhD.

I think I’d recommend anyone interested in teaching and understanding the stuff who find it appealing should dive into it. It’s really cool stuff.

I would not recommend a student dive into it. It takes some sorting through and making workable—or at least it did for me.

[Navdeep_Singh]

There is a ton of info on this thread. One insight I gained recently is that we can dispense with the accusation that Pasquale has “worked out-pre-arranged” his complex playing before hand. After studying all the BH stuff and being consistent with it, it is more apparent that, instead of “pre-arranging”, Pasquale has probably fully internalized the myriad of possibilities potentialities of movements (harmonically) that Barry gave us. I’ll use Thomas Echols terminology here to describe Pasquale’s harmonic feats: he can “summon” any “transformation” at will, he’s made his hands “linguistic”. Barry’s stuff is powerful, a self-contained universe, especially for a guitarist who desires to play solo guitar PIANISTICALLY. You have infinite pathways and possibilities just by moving through the 4 dominant 7ths, 4 minor 6ths, 4 major sixths, built from each diminished (what Thomas calls the ‘off-chord”). AND al the inversions, in drop 2, drop 3, drop 2 and 4 format. . Couple that up with triads and their inversions, dyads (harmonized intervals, especially in 3rds, 5ths, 6ths, 10ths, ev8ths).

If you can summon alll of this at will, you can play pianistically on the guitar. Pasquale is the one who “summon” any “transformation” at will. That’s why his playing appears so jaw dropping, like it can be considered extemporaneous, but rather can ony be imagined if it’s worked out, beforehand, like a classical piece or something.

the 6th diminished scale of chords of present infinite pathways of presenting movement within the framework of tonal music, tension and release and resolution, all kinds of both general dynamic V7-Is and localized secondary dominant V7-1s, everywhere.

Give credit to the guitarist beside Alan Kingstone (RIP comrade) who really started to popularize Barry’s stuff on guitar, Roni Ben-Hurr. His stuff is excellent. I think Thomas Echols is really killing it with his methods (full-disclosure, I don’t study with him, but have gained insight going though his PDFs and Yt instructional videos.

[AllanAllen]

The G7 in my example was a mistake. Should have been F7. I was away from my guitar when I typed it.

[garybaldy]

This is a bit of confusion for me, but is "major 6th diminished scale" a bit of a misnomer? It's not really a scale, but the combination of two chords. It seems to work by going back and forth between the two, with the diminished portion being there to go away from and back to the major 6th portion.

Would you have been brave enough to say that at one of Barry's masterclasses?!!

[Christian Miller]

There is a ton of info on this thread. One insight I gained recently is that we can dispense with the accusation that Pasquale has “worked out-pre-arranged” his complex playing before hand. After studying all the BH stuff and being consistent with it, it is more apparent that, instead of “pre-arranging”, Pasquale has probably fully internalized the myriad of possibilities potentialities of movements (harmonically) that Barry gave us. I’ll use Thomas Echols terminology here to describe Pasquale’s harmonic feats: he can “summon” any “transformation” at will, he’s made his hands “linguistic”. Barry’s stuff is powerful, a self-contained universe, especially for a guitarist who desires to play solo guitar PIANISTICALLY. You have infinite pathways and possibilities just by moving through the 4 dominant 7ths, 4 minor 6ths, 4 major sixths, built from each diminished (what Thomas calls the ‘off-chord”). AND al the inversions, in drop 2, drop 3, drop 2 and 4 format. . Couple that up with triads and their inversions, dyads (harmonized intervals, especially in 3rds, 5ths, 6ths, 10ths, ev8ths).

If you can summon alll of this at will, you can play pianistically on the guitar. Pasquale is the one who “summon” any “transformation” at will. That’s why his playing appears so jaw dropping, like it can be considered extemporaneous, but rather can ony be imagined if it’s worked out, beforehand, like a classical piece or something.

the 6th diminished scale of chords of present infinite pathways of presenting movement within the framework of tonal music, tension and release and resolution, all kinds of both general dynamic V7-Is and localized secondary dominant V7-1s, everywhere.

Give credit to the guitarist beside Alan Kingstone (RIP comrade) who really started to popularize Barry’s stuff on guitar, Roni Ben-Hurr. His stuff is excellent. I think Thomas Echols is really killing it with his methods (full-disclosure, I don’t study with him, but have gained insight going though his PDFs and Yt instructional videos.

Yeah I'm not being critical of Thomas just to be clear. I'm saying that I would regard his stuff as specialist and advanced as regards where Barry's approach will get you in jazz guitar playing. I think that your aims are somewhat different to that.

As regards his own terminology and so on, that's his own, I don't recall Barry using any of those terms. So it's clear he's riffing off Barry's ideas into his own thing.

[Christian Miller]

Would you have been brave enough to say that at one of Barry's masterclasses?!!

I think if you’d asked him he would have taken the time to give a good answer.


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[garybaldy]

I think if you’d asked him he would have taken the time to give a good answer.


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probably the one you gave in this thread.

[supersoul]

Would you have been brave enough to say that at one of Barry's masterclasses?!!

I was genuinely curious about the question. If I was at a Barry Harris masterclass I'd already be enough into it to already know the answer.

[Christian Miller]

I was genuinely curious about the question. If I was at a Barry Harris masterclass I'd already be enough into it to already know the answer.

People used to turn up with no idea. I know I did. Or at least back in the noughts or early tens. A lot of people didn't really seem to know who he was. YouTube and the internet was just getting started.

The people who were real core regulars and organisers like Shan and David Friedman, I hadn't really encountered that much around the scene. I remember scratching my head about that. I think the London scene was quite proggy and projects oriented back then. Later a few people from the London jazz scene started to come.

Now the young London players seem to be angling more towards straight ahead, in fact, and Barry's a big deal.

Barry wasn't some awful authoritarian laying down the law and refusing to hear any questioning. Or at least he wasn't in my experience. While he could be strict and old school he had patience to explain things and answer questions about his ideas. I'm sure if someone had asked him politely, he'd make time to explain.

So long as you didn't get him on to the subject of Berklee or Chick Corea or something haha, and then there would be a rant. A fun rant though.

[Navdeep_Singh]

Yeah I'm not being critical of Thomas just to be clear. I'm saying that I would regard his stuff as specialist and advanced as regards where Barry's approach will get you in jazz guitar playing. I think that your aims are somewhat different to that.

As regards his own terminology and so on, that's his own, I don't recall Barry using any of those terms. So it's clear he's riffing off Barry's ideas into his own thing.

Oh yeah, he’s definitely a “Barry Person”. I actually vibe with those new terms, because they bring relief and clarity as to how bring Barry’s concepts to light, on a practical basis. But yeah, specialized on the focus of solo guitar, for sure. As for Thomas, what a road to take for a classically trained guitarist. And yes, my interest in Barry’s stuff is much more about polyphony, harmony and chords and movement of the same as opposed to lines. The key nexus is the ability to play solo guitar pianistically.

[rlrhett]

40 years of guitar, and I’m still an “advanced beginner”, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Is the six-dim scale of chords “just going from inversion to diminished chords”? If you want it to be. It’s like asking if soloing over the blues is just playing the key center’s minor pentatonic. It can be, and in some hands to great effect.

That said, I’d have to ask if the person who asked has listened a lot to Barry Harris actual performances? Does it sound to you that he is just playing on-off block chords in his left hand? I think most of us understand Barry Harris‘s exercises and theories as foundations upon which you build your playing. It’s up to you to turn this theory and exercises into your music.


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[supersoul]

That said, I’d have to ask if the person who asked has listened a lot to Barry Harris actual performances? Does it sound to you that he is just playing on-off block chords in his left hand? I think most of us understand Barry Harris‘s exercises and theories as foundations upon which you build your playing. It’s up to you to turn this theory and exercises into your music.

I haven't listened to a lot of Barry Harris. I like him on Lee Morgan's The Sidewinder LP. Most of his albums that I've listened to are straight ahead and fairly conservative (in a non-judgemental way) acoustic jazz. I haven't found them particularily exciting. Nothing wrong with them, just not something that makes me want to listen to repeatedly.

I have no idea where you got the idea that I'm attacking his ideas. I just asked a question about the meaning of the term "scale."

My interest is more along the lines of George Shearing. Strangely, I like that group he had with Nels Henning Orsted Pedersen and Louis Stewart (strangely because that is also straight ahead and fairly conservative acoustic jazz... go figure). Mostly I hear the maj6 diminished stuff in the chords, but perhaps I need to listen more closely.