BH 6th/dim for single note mofos

[Strat-itis]

I'm committing to working up 6th/dim for single note.

I've had it on the back burner for years, but it didn't seem necessary to spend the time to integrate. What changed is studying Milt I need to get 16th notes going, and using 16th notes it doubles the amount of line you have in each chord compared to 8th notes. So there's adequate space to outline the device.

Also either the lil chromatic notes scalarly or the main chord then dim alternation arp wise work famously for it sounding bebop. To me it sounds better than the diatonic scales for running around with 16th notes and have it not sound awkward. And it's simpler than a bunch of half step devices.

[pamosmusic]

Hit us with the game plan, cat.

[pamosmusic]

For my part I honestly just really love tossing that diminished in as an off chord. Like when I’m playing the Eb at the beginning of Another You or something, I’ll toss a little D diminished in for some drama.

Ive spent casual time with intervals and things like that but not enough to feel like I hear much of it.

I would say when I do its in the minor so if you’re looking for a place to start I’d recommend with the m6 first. Learn Segment while you’re at it. That’s a wicked sound.

[Strat-itis]

^ I agree that dims used strategically sound very tasty, and are kind of a trademark of good fluent players.

Hit us with the game plan, cat.

Gameplan is very simple.

1. Before I thought it was unnecessary. But now working up 16th notes, I have the space to fit the device in the chord and run enough notes to have the device be conveyed.
2. I simply use the 6th/dim scale linearly OR throw in some main arp / dim alternations or fragments of that.

Ends up being an effective single note approach for 3 reasons.

1. Fits in bebop half steps with a simple device.
2. Makes running 16th notes easier because it feels like articulation naturally lands more smoothly on better notes. Compared to having to micro manage a diatonic scale and add the chromatic note or passing chord devices.
3. Utlizes the 1/5 micro cadence thing and introduces lil micro movements into the line and makes it sound hip, dense, and forward moving.

[Christian Miller]

Also, Brahms m8


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[David B]

[Strat-itis]

And Christian already has a video on it. Yes, I'll be weaving. You can start with the exercises listed but then expand on it. Alternating between full arps certainly sounds good but you can expand on it with different types of sequences, fragments of the arps, or mix arps with linear.

Yep and as we see bebop or 6th/dim linear stuff already exists in the playing.

[pamosmusic]

Apropos of the BH thread with someone asking how to use this scale in single notes, I hereby encourage Clint to post the occasional progress report.

Im interested too. Getting this going is one of those things that kind of always like … third on my list of things to do and I never quite really get going on it

[Strat-itis]

Getting this going is one of those things that kind of always like … third on my list of things to do and I never quite really get going on it.

Yeah no that's how it was for me too. Then working up my 16th notes it became apparent that it would work well and not be a side thing. It's not too tough, just use it how you would any other scale and create melodies and throw in a few arp or arp fragment sequences and it sounds good. Get familiar with it and it starts to seat well in your 16th notes. Of course you can use it for 8th notes, but I like it with 16th notes becuase there's more space to exhibit the device.

[pamosmusic]

Also I hadn’t really thought about it as being particularly useful for 16ths. Or maybe 16ths being particularly well suited to these scales. Not sure which. Or probably both.

Either way — this is a very interesting point you’ve made note of here.

That doesn’t really have anything to do with your last post. Meant to say it upthread though.

[Christian Miller]

So... I notice that the first line with the passing flat sixth is basically a straight scalar run down the octave from D-D (5th) starting and landing on the beat. So I think Barry would have taught that as an example of an added note scale, one added note for a scale starting on an odd numbered note (1) on the beat.

(Or at least that's my take - obviously you were at many of the same classes as me, and I'd say you'd looked into this stuff a lot yourself Dave?)

I'd have to watch the rest to see if there are other examples that Barry might have taught as 6-dim scale, and certainly as I reference in my video he did do this for single note lines, but these lines seemed to be more arpeggiations of block chords and so on than stepwise runs, which were handled differently.

In part this is because the rules change if you start on an upbeat, or if you start on an even numbered note of the scale.

This might seem like a pedantic distinction (although less so if you get deeper in to the single note stuff) and I think loads of mainstream jazz education people would just class all these things as belonging to the major bebop scale which is to say indistinguishable from maj6-diminished in terms of the notes. And loads of people have learned that way and sound great. It's how someone like Randy Vincent would teach it, or how they teach it at Berklee.

But in terms of how Barry would teach that specific line, I think he would have called it an added note major scale.

[David B]

I must admit that I hadn't really paid the above video any great attention when I threw it into the conversation!

I've just jumped around through a half dozen examples in that video and agree with Christian that they can all be described in terms, and would likely have been described by Barry in terms, other than '6th diminished'.

The clearest example I've seen in that video of so far of using 6th diminished to build a line is arpeggiating the 6th diminished scale at 11:05 but that's nothing new - there are several exercises in Roni Ben-Hur's book that do this.

[Strat-itis]

Apropos of the BH thread with someone asking how to use this scale in single notes, I hereby encourage Clint to post the occasional progress report. I'm interested too. Getting this going is one of those things that kind of always like … third on my list of things to do and I never quite really get going on it.

I've integrated the 6th/dim scales for 16th notes (against BH teaching minus minor 6) and they're working famously. A difficulty with 16th notes is getting the inflection to seat well. This solves that because the scales have 8 notes, and they land you on either main chord or dim notes, so the emphasis doesn't get weird, and it doesn't take mega wisdom to manage it with 7 note scales when you're trying to burn. So they haven't been a novelty, they've been really helpful.

[djg]

sonny stitt was a master of these min6-dim moves. he even did it on so what, which miles hated.

i'd start with min6 down, dim up. taking that through all the keys should take a while.

[pamosmusic]

I’ve been spending a bunch of time with the m6-dim scales.

I’ve been running a key a day, so twelve days twelve keys …

up and down from each chord tone
thirds up
thirds down
thirds alternating
I’m on fourths up

I’ve also been doing the alternating arpeggios and I’ve been doing double stops with whatever melodic interval I’ve been working on

[Christian Miller]

sonny stitt was a master of these min6-dim moves. he even did it on so what, which miles hated.

Interesting - what context was that in and what did he say exactly?

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[grahambop]

Interesting - what context was that in and what did he say exactly?

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There was a thread on this a while back:

Miles Davis critique of Sonny Stitt question

[Christian Miller]

There was a thread on this a while back:

Miles Davis critique of Sonny Stitt question

Ah right. So, Miles did not in fact make reference to the min6-dim scale unless I’m missing something?

TBH the quote seemed a bit dodgy to me anyway. I would think what djg said was something like what Miles meant and Kahn got his quote scrambled - he wouldn’t be the first jazz writer to inadvertently put words in a players mouth - but that’s supposition on my part.

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[grahambop]

I think it just boils down to: Stitt was still playing bebop lines and Miles wasn’t.

[grahambop]

Sonny Stitt plays some nice diminished lines in this solo.

(Barry Harris incorporates a few sixths and some diminished stuff too.)

[Christian Miller]

Yeah the way Peter Bernstein puts it - Miles changed the sound of the minor chord


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[Strat-itis]

I thought I was going to be all tech with the 6th/dim as single note, trying to express the vertical aspect. But it ended up just being perfect to help me with my regular contoured 16th notes. 8 notes so it stays square, and either chord note or dim note so the tonality inflection stays even.