Practice in Twelve Keys or else

**mr. beaumont** · 01-29-2016, 03:59 PM

I think there's two types of people who don't like "Giant Steps."

1. Those who haven't played it yet

2. Those who were put in a situation where they played it before they really knew it

**christianm77** · 01-29-2016, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think there's two types of people who don't like "Giant Steps."

1. Those who haven't played it yet

2. Those who were put in a situation where they played it before they really knew it

3. Realise that they've wasted 10 years of their life practicing the bloody thing ;-) Actually I am practicing it atm as part of an idea to score some cheap YouTube hits. Watch this space ...

Giant steps as a bossa was cool when Metheny did it, I'll grant you that. I'm talking about that part of a gig when you all look at each other and go 'well it's got to that time again.' It's either that it ATTYA in seven.

**targuit** · 01-29-2016, 04:49 PM

I happen to love Coltrane's ballad playing as in his recordings with Johnny Hartmann.

But I give up here in the sixth grade. I will write on the blackboard a hundred times. "I love Giant Steps. I love Giant...." To please the jazz police.

Someone explain how we ended up back in 1984...

**MarkRhodes** · 01-29-2016, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

OMG, this place is too much!

Whoa, that was one opinion expressed in this place. (And a minority opinion at that.) You are also in this place and think that the view that "Giant Steps" is a crap tune is "too much." And I'm sure that there are people here who might enjoy hearing the Coltrane recording but have no interest in playing the tune themselves. And still others who don't care much for the tune---they don't own a copy and aren't interested in getting one---but they don't think it crap.

It is a virtue of this place that we don't march in lockstep.

**targuit** · 01-29-2016, 05:07 PM

I don't believe that I actually said it was "crap". I said that it makes me slightly nauseous and I don't like it. I apologize for my visceral reaction and telling the truth. Won't happen again....

And please do not think any less of Christian - thanks for expressing your opinion without trepidation, Christian. Only the brave....

**mr. beaumont** · 01-29-2016, 05:21 PM

Here, speaking of Steps, here's a non traditional take I did on it. Just exploring what the melody and chord changes hold. It's a lot more than just a "dick measuring contest" of a tune.

We should actually start a "Steps" thread where we could post different takes on it. There's still stuff to be said on this one, as far as I'm concerned.

**yaclaus** · 01-29-2016, 05:45 PM

I really love Giant Steps. I like the melody and the short form.
Even more 26-2 with Rosenwinkel, Ravi Coltrane and Kreisberg takes
Countdown with Gilad. Fifth house with Jacob Bro.
Tranes Body and Soul version - wow!

There is also music I don't like. I try not to spend too much time or energy on that.

Best
Claus

**MarkRhodes** · 01-29-2016, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

I don't believe that I actually said it was "crap". I said that it makes me slightly nauseous and I don't like it. I apologize for my visceral reaction and telling the truth. Won't happen again....

And please do not think any less of Christian - thanks for expressing your opinion without trepidation, Christian. Only the brave....

targuit, no one said you called it crap. We know who called it crap. (For the record, I have no problem with Christian calling it a crap tune. I disagree but I'm not upset about it and I don't think any less of Christian for saying it.)

**nick1994** · 01-29-2016, 09:13 PM

everyone has a tune they hate. I can't stand unforgettable or misty, both are horrid tunes to me but lots of people love them and I don't mind. in fact I think there was a thread about this.

**christianm77** · 01-29-2016, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Giant Steps is a crap tune?!? lol.

Some of the folks who have recorded that "crap tune"

Rahsaan Roland Kirk, Pat Metheny, Buddy Rich, Jaco Pastorius, Mike Stern,Greg Howe, Tommy Flanagan, McCoy Tyner, Kenny Werner, Kenny Garrett, Woody Herman, New York Voices, Taylor Eigsti, Gary Bartz, Chaka Khan, and Joey Alexander.

OMG, this place is too much!

No I don't rate Giant Steps as a composition. I don't care who's played it. It's a shibboleth - a thing that you have to do to show you are a jazz musician. I practice it for the same reason. I don't think it's a musical statement of anything other than chucking down the gauntlet.

Alabama, Naima, these are artistic statements. John Coltrane's artistry for me is not in Giant Steps.

Some very great jazz musicians can make it into music (I wouldn't actually include Coltrane in that number, but then he didn't have as long to practice it ;-)). That's the impressive thing - not that they can play it, but that they can turn something that awkward into something worth listening to. Barry Harris can do this brilliantly, and he has a certain ...disdain ... for the tune.

Actually I'm not familiar with the Chaka Kahn version I'll have to check it out...

**christianm77** · 01-29-2016, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by nick1994

everyone has a tune they hate. I can't stand unforgettable or misty, both are horrid tunes to me but lots of people love them and I don't mind. in fact I think there was a thread about this.

You see I think those are good tunes that are often played poorly. What about this version?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTc51neUGyE

Giant Steps is a bad tune that is often played fantastically...

**MarkRhodes** · 01-29-2016, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by nick1994

everyone has a tune they hate. I can't stand unforgettable or misty, both are horrid tunes to me but lots of people love them and I don't mind. in fact I think there was a thread about this.

Yes, I remember that, though not the title of the thread. I think "Summertime" got several votes. (I love it nonetheless.) I think the emphasis there was on tunes one hated to play---not because one thought they were poor tunes but rather that they had been done to death...

**nick1994** · 01-29-2016, 10:12 PM

I don't mean to say that these tunes are objectively poorly written tunes, they're not. I just don't like them.

**nick1994** · 01-29-2016, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

They all have quite space-agey titles, no?

didn't he actually do an album that was all space themed? I think it was one of his last albums, it was called interstellar space i think.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-29-2016, 10:35 PM

Sure did, it's outstanding.

**PMB** · 01-30-2016, 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Yes, I remember that, though not the title of the thread. I think "Summertime" got several votes. (I love it nonetheless.) I think the emphasis there was on tunes one hated to play---not because one thought they were poor tunes but rather that they had been done to death...

Summertime (in its original form, a broody gem) has become the victim of second-rate singers and faux-funk stylists who insist on turning it into a poor cousin of So What.

**PMB** · 01-30-2016, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Yeah I agree Jay. Giant Steps is a crap tune - well that's unfair - it's an etude, not really a composition of any lasting value.

Coltrane moved on from it quickly. That's why it's such a challenge, it's so hard to make it sound like music.

You practice GS because one day a douchebag will call it at a silly tempo in some stupid key. But you never want to be that douchebag. Also unless you play a lot of Coltrane major 3rd stuff (Countdown, 26-2, Sattelite) on a regular basis, the skillset is pretty non-transferable.

The only reasons anyone plays GS is because of inveterate douchebaggery. And also the jazz doctrine of tormenting yourself in new and inventive ways.

Just because it's an etude doesn't mean it can't be compositionally worthwhile (tell that to Chopin and Debussy!). Sure, the melody of Giant Steps is simplicity in extremis but I think its a mini-masterpiece.

As for the non-transferability of skill set, it's interesting that there are no Coltrane compositions in the recorded output of Billy Bean and Jesse van Ruller. Yet from the evidence of Bean's notebooks, one of the only full transcriptions that he ever completed was the Giant Steps solo and van Ruller admits to never practising intensely on any one thing in his formative years with the exception of working for countless hours over Coltrane changes.

Also, Barry Harris may profess to dislike Giant Steps but he seems to play over it a lot judging by the YT videos! My feeling from watching them is that while the composition doesn't fit in with his universe, BH is secretly fascinated by the tune and its changes.

**mrcee** · 01-30-2016, 08:04 AM

like it or not Giant Steps is an important tune. reminds me of a Jackson Pollack quote. he said that all painters of his generation had to go either over, under, around or through Picasso. same with GS. even intermediate players should study it. no trick chords and the head is easy. and even those advanced players that dislike it have confronted it. it's not the saga of harrison crabfeathers.

i was talking to someone the other day about it and i thought that there was a similarity btwn GS and Cherokee.
both have been right of passage, cutting tunes. And both have a head made up of a lot of 1/2 and whole notes with the chords coming at you fast. and on a different tangent, i see a similarity btwn the Cherokee bridge and the Tune Up changes which were the basis for Countdown, another example of Coltrane changes. I've been grappling with GS for decades and don't know if i'll ever get to where i'd perform it. i've heard cats, pros, do a one schtick pony version of it with a latin feel or whatever, and it doesn't really get it for me. i like the tune as much or more than any Coltrane composition. i love Coltrane but don't think he's going to make it to the composers hall of fame. if i was on the board i wouldn't vote for him. it is a bit of a disappointing realisation, sort of like finding out that Ol' Blues' a chicken killer but it takes more than a few great numbers to get into any hall of fame. imo imo imo

**targuit** · 01-30-2016, 09:18 AM

I do like the head, which as Zappa used to say, is the best part.

**christianm77** · 01-30-2016, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by PMB

Just because it's an etude doesn't mean it can't be compositionally worthwhile (tell that to Chopin and Debussy!). Sure, the melody of Giant Steps is simplicity in extremis but I think its a mini-masterpiece.

As for the non-transferability of skill set, it's interesting that there are no Coltrane compositions in the recorded output of Billy Bean and Jesse van Ruller. Yet from the evidence of Bean's notebooks, one of the only full transcriptions that he ever completed was the Giant Steps solo and van Ruller admits to never practising intensely on any one thing in his formative years with the exception of working for countless hours over Coltrane changes.

Also, Barry Harris may profess to dislike Giant Steps but he seems to play over it a lot judging by the YT videos! My feeling from watching them is that while the composition doesn't fit in with his universe, BH is secretly fascinated by the tune and its changes.

Yes the Chopin & Debussy etudes are great pieces of music. Unlike Giant Steps.

That proves nothing. For all we know Jesse van Ruller would be even more awesome if he had wasted less time on Giant Steps ;-)

I think it's a complex relationship. The tune makes me grumpy. (And I wouldn't necessarily take what I am saying with dead seriousness either...)

**targuit** · 01-30-2016, 09:46 AM

I actually like the head at least to a point. The transcription video I posted above is the only transcription I have ever seen beyond the lead sheet for the head. So for me it has never been 'worth it' to transcribe at that tempo as I don't have software like Transcribe to slow the beast down. And then again, I don't have "horn envy". Still I like that guitar version by Ramon. I just have no desire to learn to play the tune to jump through someone's hoop. My bad.

If someone out there actually has learned Coltrane's actual solo, how did you do it? Off sheet music or transcribing painstakingly yourself? If this is available as sheet music (I never looked), where did you find it? Gonna check sheet music. com.

**christianm77** · 01-30-2016, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by mrcee

like it or not Giant Steps is an important tune. reminds me of a Jackson Pollack quote. he said that all painters of his generation had to go either over, under, around or through Picasso. same with GS. even intermediate players should study it. no trick chords and the head is easy. and even those advanced players that dislike it have confronted it. it's not the saga of harrison crabfeathers.

i was talking to someone the other day about it and i thought that there was a similarity btwn GS and Cherokee.
both have been right of passage, cutting tunes. And both have a head made up of a lot of 1/2 and whole notes with the chords coming at you fast. and on a different tangent, i see a similarity btwn the Cherokee bridge and the Tune Up changes which were the basis for Countdown, another example of Coltrane changes. I've been grappling with GS for decades and don't know if i'll ever get to where i'd perform it. i've heard cats, pros, do a one schtick pony version of it with a latin feel or whatever, and it doesn't really get it for me. i like the tune as much or more than any Coltrane composition. i love Coltrane but don't think he's going to make it to the composers hall of fame. if i was on the board i wouldn't vote for him. it is a bit of a disappointing realisation, sort of like finding out that Ol' Blues' a chicken killer but it takes more than a few great numbers to get into any hall of fame. imo imo imo

Yeah I agree with that. You might hate GS but you will have contact with it at some point. I have performed it live quite a few times. I used to think it was cool.

Cherokee just evokes the image of interminable jam sessions where long lines of tenor sax players queue up to play 5 choruses each... .Your comparison with Giant Steps is apt. It was cool when Bird (or Bud or any of the masters) played it, but in my mind it kind of becomes associated with the sort of anti-music that gives jazz a bad name. Jock jazz!

Egotism, self indulgence... Doesn't have to be that way, I grant you.

The difference is is that Cherokee is actually pretty easy, but everyone thinks it's hard (it boils down to the fact that the tune is played fast and there's a bit in B major and A major which means sax players have to learn their scales.)

**christianm77** · 01-30-2016, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by targuit

I actually like the head at least to a point. The transcription video I posted above is the only transcription I have ever seen beyond the lead sheet for the head. So for me it has never been 'worth it' to transcribe at that tempo as I don't have software like Transcribe to slow the beast down. And then again, I don't have "horn envy". Still I like that guitar version by Ramon. I just have no desire to learn to play the tune to jump through someone's hoop. My bad.

You can slow everything down to half speed on youtube. Click on the cog.

Ramon is clearly an amazing musician...

But I think there is a value to not slowing down stuff to transcribe. I think Reg mentioned that in his opinion everyone should transcribe at tempo elsewhere, and I've heard a few people say that.

I try to do this as much as possible, but sometimes need to drop the tempo to transcribe a run.

**targuit** · 01-30-2016, 09:59 AM

I agree that most often by ear is more than sufficient but with this tune would be quite tedious without software. Just my opinion here and in terms of what it is worth to me personally in terms of time and effort.

Seems Hal Leonard has published the full transcription or at least a piano arrangement which I assume is accurate. If I were motivated to learn GS, I would buy the piano transcription and work off that. Not worth my time and effort to transcribe that fast tempo solo by ear without software to slow it down. $5.50 if I recall on music notes.com.

**jzucker** · 01-30-2016, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

You can slow everything down to half speed on youtube. Click on the cog.

Ramon is clearly an amazing musician...

But I think there is a value to not slowing down stuff to transcribe. I think Reg mentioned that in his opinion everyone should transcribe at tempo elsewhere, and I've heard a few people say that.

I try to do this as much as possible, but sometimes need to drop the tempo to transcribe a run.

i disagree. Slowing things down allows you to get the nuances of the articulations. Musicians have always slowed down. I'm old enough that I used to slow 33 1/3 rpm records down to 16 and then later used a superscope tape recorder. Now I use Transcribe. It's invaluable to slow things down.