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:-D Couldn't resist
Originally Posted by BigDee62
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01-26-2016 10:13 PM
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I completely agree.... For me it wasn't so much fusion as 'unfocussed generic modern jazz.' I think it's great to have a sharp clear focus on something you are passionate about, really learning it as detailed as you can... Originally Posted by docbop
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This can be taken to extremes too...Paul Pieper (great guitarist) was telling me a story about being at Namm or some other big show and he saw fellow DC guitarist Paul Bollenback playing in one of the booths. He stopped by and Bollenback invited him to sit in. Bollenback asked him if he knew Giant Steps and Pieper said yes. Bollenback shouted out Key of C and counted it off really fast. Even though it was only a 1/2 step up from the regular key, Pieper scuffled his way through it and was a bit embarrassed and pissed. After the tune, Bollenback said, "welcome to the big leagues" or something to that effect...
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Kind of a dick move there, eh? That's the stuff you pull with the unwanted "sit in," not the guy you invite!
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That would irk me too.
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They don't sound like they're friends. At least not any more.
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F**k the big leagues. It's stuff like that that has turned jazz into something that doesn't sell. Any self respecting musician Originally Posted by jzucker
(assuming he couldn't make the key) would have told that guy to jump in a (joyous) lake. I've got my limits as a musician and don't know if I'd want to be put on the spot with Blue Bossa in a weird key. The head anyway. But I've blown guys off the stage with a bigger name than the above mentioned culero.Last edited by mrcee; 01-28-2016 at 01:14 PM.
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'hey you wanna play something ?' =
'im gonna cut you'
thats just ego sh1t , i agree screw the big leagues , in fact screw all the 'leagues'
its not supposed to be a competition
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Unfortunately, it's part of the tradition. That's why bird and diz invented bop - to discourage "lesser players" from sitting in. In this case, it's a bit of a conundrum because paul pieper is a fabulous player but human ego will always be a problem in any group setting. Originally Posted by mrcee
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The way I understood it was the other guy, not Pieper who was doing the cutting. Originally Posted by jzucker
I don't think there's anything wrong necessarily with a bit of good natured rivalry and competitiveness. But there is also such a thing as being a massive douche.
Although, sometimes cutting is done to take an egotistical player down a peg or two...
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Unfortunate is the right word. Originally Posted by jzucker
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Originally Posted by jzucker
I think there's a difference between having to deal with too many so-so players showing up at jam sessions and calling tunes at tempos that will thin the herd and inviting someone to play with you and then calling a standard in an unusual key at a breakneck tempo----what's up with that?
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It's part of the game like dogs sniffin' each others ass. If you shine on the tune you just earned a ton of credit, if you just hung and made it thru, you still get credit for makin' it work. If you put your tail between your legs and fold then no soup for you for six months. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Originally Posted by docbop
Who wants to eat soup with a**holes? ;o)
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It's one thing if one is being mentored. ("Wax on, wax off, Daniel san!") But the case Jack described wasn't like that. It's appropriate to put someone who is acting too big for his britches to the test, but when you ask someone to sit in with you and then try to show them up---that's crap. You remember the NAMM video of Carol Kaye and George Benson? He saw her playing at a booth, she asked him to play something with her, and the surrounding crowd was delighted to hear them blow. They were both long-time pros. They weren't trying to make each other look bad: they were having fun together.
Russell Malone tells a story about meeting Jimmy Smith. Mind you, this was in a club where Jimmy was performing. Russell asked to sit in and Jimmy said sure. A blues was called and Russell showed off a bit. Then Jimmy called "Laura" and took little Russell to school. After the gig, Jimmy spent hours talking to Russell in his (Jimmy's) hotel room, telling him a lot about the music, helping him out. But in that case, Russell showed out first and Jimmy let him know who's stage it was. But to call someone up on stage and try to embarrass them, that's the work of a small mind.
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Most are, some aren't, some need to feel you out first, some depends on the situation. Like some I've worked for off the gig we were close friends at the gig it was like I was just the hired hand, but I knew that was part of the game. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I think people are over reacting.... "oh no my feeling are too sensitive". No it's the real world you size up the situation and if its of value to you to learn or experience something valuable to you do put you asbestos underwear on and do it. Words don't physical hurt so let 'em blow by an remind yourself why you want to be in that situation. Guess it's just the way I am with music and my career in computers and other things if I want to learn something I'll do what I need to learn even if it requires asking the question and know the answers going to come with a boatload of attitude and I'll come back for more. Because I know if they see or hear I'm trying they will keep giving me answers and each time with a little less attitude than the last. Street learning.
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But that's not the case we're talking about. We're not talking about a kid going to a master and doing whatever the master said in order to learn the trade. This is not that at all. It was one guy inviting another to sit in and deliberately making it hard for him. This wasn't a pro / novice relationship. Also, in the real world, people are often considerate of their guests and colleagues. If someone takes a long, hot solo, you might wanna show the crowd you can do better, but that's nowhere near the same as calling "Giant Steps" in C at breakneck speed. Originally Posted by docbop
Was Wes like this? The stories I've heard about players meeting him and asking for advice all paint him as a nice guy. Freddie Green said Herb Ellis was generous in sharing what he knew with lesser players. Joe Pass seemed that way too. Now, I have read that the first night Barney Kessel played with Oscar Peterson, Barney was given a lot of latitude and was a big hit with audience. The next night, the story goes, the tempos were much brighter, Oscar's solos longer and splashier, and Barney was kept on a short leash.
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That may be true but it's very commonplace in the jazz and classical world. It's a very competitive field. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
It's no different than a pitcher brushing back a rookie or a linebacker putting a little extra "sweetness" on a rookie quarterback...
Not saying it's "right" but it's definitely part of the tradition...
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Bars can be clinical labs for analyzing human nature. Ever notice in "dating" age bar when a group of a three or four guys are hitting on a pair of women that when trying to tell jokes or "one up" each other to impress the ladies, their voices markedly escalate in volume? My inane joke is louder than yours....
I always love the fact that they pull out Giant Steps to blow back the inept and unwashed. What if you don't play Giant Steps? I know - the Jazz Police and 'serious' musicians feel they have to learn it and also love it. Now I know my next project...gonna go listen on YT right now.
Listening now - this song just makes me feel nauseous - seriously. Ideal dinner music. I like the head - it's just the rest of it.... But I love it, really I do...love it.
Listening to Sonny Rollins - St. Thomas.... the nausea goes away! Just as fast tempo - just better music. Oh, I did not really say that.....
Edit - This is a cool video you guys might really like - I just stumbled upon it. If you have seen it, I apologize for the "derail". But I thought you might just find this as cool as I did. So, I'm taking the chance...
Last edited by targuit; 01-29-2016 at 10:44 AM.
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Yeah I agree Jay. Giant Steps is a crap tune - well that's unfair - it's an etude, not really a composition of any lasting value.
Coltrane moved on from it quickly. That's why it's such a challenge, it's so hard to make it sound like music.
You practice GS because one day a douchebag will call it at a silly tempo in some stupid key. But you never want to be that douchebag. Also unless you play a lot of Coltrane major 3rd stuff (Countdown, 26-2, Sattelite) on a regular basis, the skillset is pretty non-transferable.
The only reasons anyone plays GS is because of inveterate douchebaggery. And also the jazz doctrine of tormenting yourself in new and inventive ways.
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Disagree.
It's fun and catchy. Doesn't need to be taken at 300bpm...but jazz can be fast. Part of the game
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There's nothing that says depressing background pickup gig quite like Giant Steps as a bossa :-)
(I've done that quite a few times I hasten to add ;-))
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Yeah, when Pat Metheny did that in front of a few thousand people it was sooooo lame.
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That Sonny Rollins interview is so cool. Pics of the Big Boys, as he termed it.
Christian, you took the words that I am afraid to say. Quietly - I don't like Giant Steps. But I was watching another neat video that shows the melody and the chord changes as Coltrane runs through. Quite interesting although it quickly becomes apparent reading the melody that what is formative about the piece is the tempo at which it is executed over the intrinsic beauty of the song. I know it is distinctly 'old fashioned' to imply that a piece of music should be beautiful rather than inducing nausea in susceptible people like me.
Let me think of how many people in an audience have ever requested the tune....hmmm....never.
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Giant Steps is a crap tune?!? lol.
Some of the folks who have recorded that "crap tune"
Rahsaan Roland Kirk, Pat Metheny, Buddy Rich, Jaco Pastorius, Mike Stern,Greg Howe, Tommy Flanagan, McCoy Tyner, Kenny Werner, Kenny Garrett, Woody Herman, New York Voices, Taylor Eigsti, Gary Bartz, Chaka Khan, and Joey Alexander.
OMG, this place is too much!
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