Practice in Twelve Keys or else

[BigDee62]

You've probably practiced your scales on piano with both hands. Up down up down the keyboard.

Try contrary motion. Go up a couple octaves, keep going up with the right hand but reverse direction with the left. Mix it up.

Oh yeah, been there done that, as have thousands of piano students. 4 octave scales, parallel, at a 3rd, and at a 10th. Well, ABRSM tests that on the guitar too. But we also do contrary motion, starting at the unison and at a 3rd, and changing direction with one hand mid-scale. Try that on a guitar?!?! I'm sure there are some geniuses that can do it but ... damn that sounds REALLY hard.

[Stevebol]

I believe it was in the Terence Blanchard youtube I put up last night he says same thing in the end you have to learn Jazz on your own. There are lots of schools today and they have formalized Jazz education, because that is what school have to do to any subject to charge money to teach it. Also with exception of NYC the mentor-ship of going on the road and playing all night and getting some advice from the leader is gone. There aren't that many places to play and so many bands are pickup bands. Now you do hear the about "crews" of musicians coming together in music school and they do their best to keep gigging, jamming, and learning together after school.

I've said it many time in music school the curriculum doesn't teach much, the real teacher is hanging and playing in open counseling with the good teachers or big name teachers. Then playing and jamming as much as possible, seeing if you can form a "crew" to grow with. Last the being able to live in music 24/7 for a year or more that is the benefit of music school. So the school doesn't teach you, you learn by what questions you ask from getting to play and live music.

As an insider I couldn't go to school. Also I was expected to play something besides jazz and classical. That's just the way it is.
It's just politics. We all have to deal with it one way or another.

[BigDee62]

I've said it many time in music school the curriculum doesn't teach much, the real teacher is ...

You didn't go to music school did you? At a decent music school you never stop drinking from the fire hose, for four years straight.

But you do have to be very self-guided, it's true. One hour a week with your instrument professor, then at least 25hrs shedding to internalize what you just heard. Same thing with the ensembles - your solo practice time had better outnumber your hrs with the ensemble - significantly.

Just playing with the ensemble isn't gonna get you there.

[Stevebol]

Oh yeah, been there done that, as have thousands of piano students. 4 octave scales, parallel, at a 3rd, and at a 10th. Well, ABRSM tests that on the guitar too. But we also do contrary motion, starting at the unison and at a 3rd, and changing direction with one hand mid-scale. Try that on a guitar?!?! I'm sure there are some geniuses that can do it but ... damn that sounds REALLY hard.

By now maybe it's all been incorporated. IDK. I forgot about all the parallel motion with 3rds 6ths on piano. I'd say it gets as crazy as you want it to be. Changing direction with one hand mid-scale?
Lol. No thanks.

[docbop]

You didn't go to music school did you? At a decent music school you never stop drinking from the fire hose, for four years straight.

But you do have to be very self-guided, it's true. One hour a week with your instrument professor, then at least 25hrs shedding to internalize what you just heard. Same thing with the ensembles - your solo practice time had better outnumber your hrs with the ensemble - significantly.

Just playing with the ensemble isn't gonna get you there.

Actually I graduated two music schools and also worked at the one for many years. Music education has kind of become a hobby for me in how schools work and looking at results. I know a number of music teachers at the big schools and we talk about this topic from time to time. So I have been to music school and these are my observations, if you disagree that's fine, but I stand by what I said.

[wolflen]

I teach in 12 keys..in ALL positions..ALL inversions most jazz piano players are puzzled that a lot of guitarist don't push themselves to learn this..

yep you need the heat to do it .. the standard tuned guitar is illogical vs piano..playing triads - close and open and their inversions on piano is fairly easy in any key..no real finger stretching or string skipping..intervals are easy to SEE..forming chords with extensions are also easy to see and play..on guitar G13b9/F might take a bit of time depending on context of the chord what part of the neck your playing it in..what chord came before and after..not a bit logical..tuned in fourths..then a major 3rd and back to fourths..really..and how much rum was consumed when this design was created

scales piano vs guitar..no contest

trying to get the feel..not the sound..of Bill Evans on guitar..block out a year or so...

yes the study of classical music will help learning any instrument..

I was fortunate to begin learning the blues from advanced players who knew Bloomfield and Hendrix inside and out..then a couple of years in school learning Harmony and theory and then several years in bands..and I had a guitar buddy during all this time who would experiment with chords/harmony while I experimented with scales and melodic lines..and we had a band..then I studied with Ted Greene for two years..(Im still learning some of those lessons) .. he taught a lot about chords.. but not as chords but voices that were at rest and then move to other notes..he would play Bach Chorales mixed with some jazz chords..so classical to many jazz players is a secret ingredient .. many of todays "new" guys are using classical lines mixed in jazz vocabulary..

my view..my approach is there is only ONE key..and it has 12 tones..its like a jigsaw puzzle in the beginning..trying to get the pieces to fit together..sometime forcing them..and gradually..the picture begins to take shape..and then its done? well not really..a new puzzle is ready to be assembled..and another and another...

[mrcee]

By now maybe it's all been incorporated. IDK. I forgot about all the parallel motion with 3rds 6ths on piano. I'd say it gets as crazy as you want it to be. Changing direction with one hand mid-scale?
Lol. No thanks.

I remember the Hanon Book from when I studied a little piano. All kinds of contrary motion studies if I remember right. Guitar players need an academically accepted exercise book. Sax players have the Deville Book and bassists have the Simandl Book.

[Stevebol]

When I started playing guitar I'd jam to mom or dad playing some Hanon in the other room. I didn't learn to read music for ages. Still can't read well at all.

[docbop]

I was unaware that Herbie was influenced by BH... But then Herbie is coming out of Bud Powell, so I suppose I shouldn't be! I know Zawinul consciously modelled his early bebop style on Barry's playing. I start to understand why Barry is so sore at fusion - all those talented bop players getting sucked away haha....

Anyway it's good advice. A lot of the older players would have some set piece stuff going on. It's great to have something prepped just in case the muse doesn't alight on your shoulder that night....

It was others probably Donald Byrd giving Barry Harris' advice to Herbie. Actually per the book the first person Herbie started listening to transcribing was George Shearing after being recommend by his friend. I think Barry's approach is part of the foundation of learning Jazz. That's why when I had trouble getting it at first I never stopped pursuing it, I felt it was important to understand. I've read/heard it multiple times you have to learn Bebop, learning Bebop lays a foundation you can use to play anything with. I wish when I was young I'd spend more time working on Bebop than just focusing on Fusion.

[ilapsteel]

So if you guys think guitar is a challenge. I play a custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar. It's like playing guitar with one finger. Try that. Also consider there is no material that exists for me. So I have to transcribe EVERYTHING. Which is great but it kills my practice time.

[docbop]

So if you guys think guitar is a challenge. I play a custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar. It's like playing guitar with one finger. Try that. Also consider there is no material that exists for me. So I have to transcribe EVERYTHING. Which is great but it kills my practice time.

That's probably the most educational part of your practice time on multiple levels.

[Ray1981]

So I'm reading the Herbie Hancock book and really digging it. Typical has a story about finally getting to play for a big name Donald Byrd. So of course they are going to test on the job at a gig. Then call Cherokee and the leader in his solo takes it through all twelve keys then they look at Herbie okay your solo time to playing it onstage in 12 keys.

Apologizes for the silly question but which book is that you are reading? There are several books Im curious to read stories like that

[docbop]

Apologizes for the silly question but which book is that you are reading? There are several books Im curious to read stories like that

I've read a lot. Right now I'm reading Herbie Hancock's and enjoying that a lot, before that Wayne Shorters book Footprints. Dizzy's book To Be or to Bop of real good. Also read Miles book a couple Coltrane books, Grant Green, Pat Metheny, started the Monk book and want to get back to it. Also read most of the Art Pepper book and want to get back to it. There are some books with on eras of Jazz and each chapter is a different musician. I got into this back in music school after reading a book on Beethoven written using letter he wrote or written to him. Dizzy's book is cool becuase there are short bits written by other musician mixed in. I read one of the Parker book like to read another. I have a book written by one of Miles Davis son's and suppose to be a very different look at Miles. When I can find them video interviews of old players preferably being interviewed by a peer.

There's a Hank Mobley book I want to read

[ilapsteel]

I'm assuming when practicing the 12 keys we just follow the circle of fifths around from C.

Or is there a preferred way of doing it?

Example I like the sound of the flat keys. They sound more mellow whereas the sharp keys sound bright.

Or do we just alternate every other etc.

Also at which point do I switch. Examples

When I'm playing a 2-5-1 in C do I switch after the 1 to the next 2 which would be an Am.

Just asking the obvious.

[mr. beaumont]

Y'know, with limited practice time, I find even more challenging and musically useful than playing in all 12 keys following the cycle is playing through tunes and modulating to other keys each chorus, trying to be more random, but also setting up the key changes.

[ilapsteel]

Any advice on common key moves that are done in jazz.

For example if I start in Bb should I jump to a specific key after or is it random.

Or should the next move be the 5 chords and as the 1.

Example

F7 = 5
So jump to the Fm7 as my next 1

[CliveR]

Ireal app has a feature that will modulate after each chorus a set interval.
The rhythm section as such is truly uninspiring but I find it a useful tool for a 12 key practice moment.

Band in the Box is much a much more useful practice tool.

[vintagelove]

Just playing devils advocate....


The twelve key thing is a myth. Look at the dissertation done on Charlie Parker, he certainly did not play all his signature lines in all keys, some only appear in a key or two. Usually the ones that fit the instrument idiomatically, who'd have thunk....

[mrcee]

Just playing devils advocate....


The twelve key thing is a myth. Look at the dissertation done on Charlie Parker, he certainly did not play all his signature lines in all keys, some only appear in a key or two. Usually the ones that fit the instrument idiomatically, who'd have thunk....

At some point being guitaristic or saxophonistic (?) or whateveristic is of considerable importance. Avoid asking an alto player to play a Blues in E concert. That's C# on an Eb instrument. A very cumbersome key. I recently went to listen at a blues jam nite. The house band wasn't very good but they got through their set alright. Then came jam time. A couple of guys took their turns on harmonicas. A middle aged woman got up there with an alto sax who didn't really know what she was doing. To make things worse the band went into the same 12 bar blues stuff in the key of E. They hung her out to dry big time. I doubt Charlie Parker would have enjoyed himself or turned in one of his better performances. The aforementioned woman didn't seem to notice though. The guitar player in the band had been using a capo and all he had to do was capo at the first fret and play in F. That's D, a good key on an alto.

[Groyniad]

i think matt guitar teacher has it right here

i get the sense that to do guitar you have to be on a bit of a pattern-trip - you have to dig the thing of unlocking the key to something that seems impossible to open up

i worked so hard in the first three years - easily averaging 10 hours a day (including 3 christmas days etc. etc.)
and i would have eureka! moments the whole time - and they were all about the way the neck really works

e.g. one day i discovered that it was really all 'revolving' around diagonal lines - so neither across nor up and down - but both at the same time

etc. etc. etc.

i've been doing three note inversions of i - iv - i over the last few days on guitar. very cool - wonderful way to digest one set of fundamental harmonic-neck-structures. i got my five year old a keyboard for christmas and i just played around on it for a few minutes and immediately pretty much nailed these sounds all over the keyboard in three or four keys - but its taken me ages to get them down all over the neck (four sets of three strings etc. etc.). that's insane. i haven't played any keyboard in over 25 years (no more than ten minutes anyway).

its basically because there's no simple way to go from low to high on the guitar - so no simple way to see that happening. and that is absolutely not the case with piano or sax or flute etc. etc.

[coolvinny]

I'm assuming when practicing the 12 keys we just follow the circle of fifths around from C.

Or is there a preferred way of doing it?

Example I like the sound of the flat keys. They sound more mellow whereas the sharp keys sound bright.

Or do we just alternate every other etc.

Also at which point do I switch. Examples

When I'm playing a 2-5-1 in C do I switch after the 1 to the next 2 which would be an Am.

Just asking the obvious.

Going around the cycle is not a good method because it's too predictable and your brain will find shortcuts (of the bad kind) whether you want it to or not. Best to go random. I use this sheet of random roots: Random Root Sheets for Efficient Music Practice | Anton Schwartz - Jazz Saxophone

That single page is hands down the BEST jazz instruction literature I've ever found. A guitar, a pick, a metronome and that single piece of paper = my jazz laboratory. I just spent a few days shedding Bouncin With Bud and Taking a Chance on Love through all keys, many many times. And then many many more times. Running heads - esp bop heads - through all keys over and over again really hammers that fretboard into your brain.

[docbop]

Going around the cycle is not a good method because it's too predictable and your brain will find shortcuts (of the bad kind) whether you want it to or not. Best to go random. I use this sheet of random roots: Random Root Sheets for Efficient Music Practice | Anton Schwartz - Jazz Saxophone

That single page is hands down the BEST jazz instruction literature I've ever found. A guitar, a pick, a metronome and that single piece of paper = my jazz laboratory. I just spent a few days shedding Bouncin With Bud and Taking a Chance on Love through all keys, many many times. And then many many more times. Running heads - esp bop heads - through all keys over and over again really hammers that fretboard into your brain.

Listen to horn players and they will cycle CoF, but then in common patterns like descending whole steps, or minor 3rd, and so on. My old bass improv teacher would come up with these long cycles to work on he was making up a symmetric key pattern like up a minor 3rd then up a whole step and because they were symmetric they would eventually cycle back around.

Also my teacher for one on one lessons has a pair of dice and a pieces of paper relating the twelve keys to the twelve numbers. First roll of dice is to see what key to play something in. Second roll of the dice is what position to play it on the guitar. That can create some real challenges.

[coolvinny]

Listen to horn players and they will cycle CoF, but then in common patterns like descending whole steps, or minor 3rd, and so on. My old bass improv teacher would come up with these long cycles to work on he was making up a symmetric key pattern like up a minor 3rd then up a whole step and because they were symmetric they would eventually cycle back around.

Using a sheet of random roots means there's one less thing I need to plan. I start on a different line every time I practice something through all keys, and this way Gb gets just as much playtime as Bb.

[BigDee62]

I dunno ... after many years of practice I doubt that random would offer any benefits. On guitar I do CoF (on piano I go up chromatically). As long as I hit every key I'm confident I'll internalize it and be able to apply it.

[docbop]

Just came across this of one of my favorites Chris Potter running the key on Cherkee.